(jazzy hip hop music)
- All right, whoo!
Thank you very much, welcome to another episode
of Chase Jarvis Live.
Thank you internet for tuning in live.
Very, very excited to have everyone here in the studio,
and the thousands of folks who are watching at home.
Amazing episode today.
We're calling it the No BS Business espisode
of Chase Jarvis Live because we have
one of the world's foremost,
the person who's inspired me more
in the business of art and photography
than any other person in the world,
Ramit Sethi, with us today.
It's gonna be an amazing show.
Throw out the ramen.
No more starving artist mentality.
That is old news.
Before we bring him out,
I've got a couple housekeeping issues.
First, I want to thank Polaroid and B & H
for supporting the show, huge, huge support.
Thank you, couldn't do it without you.
Also, I gotta give a shout-out.
We had a contest going to re-tweet the blog post
over the last couple of days,
and the winner of those, signed book,
this here book, which is Ramit's book,
I Will Teach You to be Rich.
To those, signed and autographed to you personally
are Kern-Photo and Sweethouse,
proper respect to you for promoting the show.
Thank you very much.
There's a new contest that starts right now,
will go on the rest of the show.
If you folks at home hear something you like,
a quote, re-tweet that, the hashtag cjlive,
the URL to the show, to win a signed book.
If you include @Polaroid, you'll be eligible
to win the Polaroid that I shoot,
a one-of-a-kind Polaroid of every guest for the show,
and you'll be able to win that.
Hopefully worth a ton of money
at some point in the future.
Without further ado, we're gonna get down to brass tacks,
because I promised a hard-hitting show,
a no bullshit, cut straight to the truth,
with Ramit Sethi.
Please join me in welcoming him, he's right here.
Come on up, buddy, where you at?
(audience clapping) - Yeah!
- Thanks for having me.
- Thank you. - All right.
- There's your cocktail slash orange juice.
- Thank you.
- Slash good for you.
- Slash how many times will they refill that-
- As many as you want. - In this show.
- As many as you want.
Okay, so I had made some big promises,
I don't know if you heard about this,
in the internets, in the tubes.
I promised to eat my shorts if people
did not walk away from this show
with some skills and some information,
some knowledge, that they didn't have before the show.
- Love it.
- So, my shorts are not tasty
and that means I need you to deliver the goods.
- All right.
- We all know, let's settle in for just a second here,
cause we all know, if I may, tell a little story
about artists and creatives.
We tend to have problems selling ourselves.
I think there's a belief out there
that because I can be on live television
with however many thousands of people watching,
that I don't have that same problem.
I think we all have it because we're out there
talking about ourselves, and not just ourselves,
but our work.
You have to be able to talk about your work,
and you have to be able to talk about yourself,
but more than anything,
you have to have a knowledge of what it is
the other person wants to hear.
So, before we get into the specifics and the nitty-gritty,
tell me a little bit about your background.
Where you came from, what you're doing here,
give me the low down.
- Well, you know, my background is basically,
got very interested in how people behave,
why they do what they do.
So, for example, we all know that we should
work out more, eat less-
Manage our money- - What are you saying,
I'm not fit. - Yeah (laughs).
- This is a veiled comment- (Chase laughs)
Directed, but yet we don't do it, right?
So, we all know we should do these things,
so why don't we?
I got tired of reading the same old advice.
Keep a budget, don't spend money on lattes.
That stuff sounds like it would be logical,
but it just doesn't work.
So, I got very interested in this.
My background is in social influence and persuasion.
I started learning how people work.
How do you change other people's behavior?
How do you change, how do I change my own behavior?
I created all these little tests and systems
to go to the gym more, to automate my money,
and over time I started noticing these really funny things.
I'm Indian, and I think Indian people
are basically bred to negotiate.
Since I've been a little kid,
my parents have been like,
"Look, this is how you negotiate when you go to Macy's.
"This is who, talk to her, don't talk to her,
"she's too smart, make sure you say this."
I learned how to bargain with all these people.
- I didn't know you could negotiate with Macy's.
- Most people don't. (laughing)
You shouldn't be able to, but you can.
So, I started learning how to negotiate everything,
in terms of the phrases, in terms of the mindset.
People think negotiations is adversarial,
think, hey Chase, I'm gonna take all your money,
yeah, I won.
No, it's not,
It could be cooperative, and if you do the job right,
the other person actually wants to pay you.
They want to work with you,
and price almost becomes a triviality.
I learned these things.
I studied it in school on a theoretical basis.
I got more applied, launched my book,
and basically now my-
- Can I talk about your education for a second?
- Stanford educated, Oxford educated,
and so you did go to some finer learning institutions.
- Is that where you learned the meat of the matter,
or did you learn in the streets?
- That's both, actually.
Learning it when I was a kid,
was through my parents, very applied,
what do you say, who do you talk to.
Learning the real theoretical models in school.
I think there's power to both,
so it's easy to write a top ten list
of things to say in a negotiation,
but I really appreciate people
who have that theoretical rigor,
so I want to talk about all those things today.
Then, how do you apply that to money,
to business, to personal relationships.
You can apply all these things to many
different parts of life.
- All right, I'm gonna tell a short story
and you tell me if I put my foot in my mouth,
or if I blow it in any way.
The person who introduced us is Tim Ferriss.
Tim is a good friend, and he's been on the show before.
Tim, if you're watching, respect.
It was at a gathering that Tim was having,
and I don't know, you and I started visiting.
As I said in my blog post,
I learned more in 30 minutes talking to you
than I had in the previous ten years.
The things that stuck with me the most, the absolute most,
were how the negotiation or the idea of,
in our case, talking about art and creativity,
was very much about understanding
the mindset of the other.
As soon as you take it out of the adversarial thing,
and it's like, if I can create and illustrate
the value that I'm bringing in the right way,
that not only would this person be an advocate,
but they will actually be happy to give you,
not just some money, but more money
than you thought you could do the job for.
- Totally, it's all about understanding the other person,
and that's really hard to do.
We're not built, naturally,
to understand the other person.
We walk in to an interview, or to a client meeting,
and all we wanna talk about is,
here's what I can do, I, I, I.
We call it I, I, I syndrome.
It takes really hard work to be able
to understand the other person.
I'll give you an example.
We built this course on earning money,
and we spent over one year
and collected over 100,000 data points
to understand why people want to earn money,
why are they already not earning money.
All these barriers.
For example, why do you think
the number one reason people want
to earn money on the side is?
These are 20's and 30's.
Why do think they want to earn
an extra 1000 dollars a month?
What would they do with it?
- Oh man, I don't know, vacation?
- That's what I thought!
I thought they're gonna go to Vegas,
and basically ball it up, bottle service,
staying at the best places.
I was sure.
Wrong, I was totally wrong.
It was, people want to have
the option to eventually quit their jobs.
Not to quit, but to have the option.
When we learned that, it totally changed
the way we framed it.
When we're writing our marketing,
and when we're writing about the course,
people are reading it, and they actually say,
"Holy shit, I can't believe this guy
"just said that.
"I was actually gonna say those words, right now."
It almost, to them, seems like
we're reading their minds,
but that's cause we did all the work beforehand.
- Got it, thank you for doing all the work,
because the work that you've already done
in the ten years of your career
is what we're hoping to pour out on the stage here,
and into the audience, and into the audience at home.
Where do we start?
When you stand back and you look at creatives
and their inability, their total ineptitude,
It's why we live up to the stereotypes.
Everyone in the audience is looking
sheepishly at me right now.
I wish you folks at home could see that,
but we're all guilty of it,
and I hate it as much as the next person.
Is it about representing?
In my blog post, I said we're gonna talk
about some specific things.
We're gonna talk about negotiating.
80% of the negotiation is done
before you ever set foot in the room,
or get on the phone.
80%, that to me was mind blower.
That was one of the things you told me before,
so we better learn about that.
We better learn about how to illustrate
the value that you bring to the client,
and one of the other things I love,
I think in your world that's called the briefcase?
- Briefcase technique.
- The briefcase technique, in our world
it would be the portfolio technique.
This shit's gonna blow your mind.
Those are a couple things that we wanna cover.
We also want to be taking questions the whole time
from folks here in the live studio audience,
and those folks at home.
As a reminder, if you want to ask a question,
while you're tweeting away these brilliant things,
these nuggets that Ramit's dropping,
so you can win two copies of his signed book.
Which we should grab the book here real quick.
I Will Teach you to be Rich.
So, while you're re-tweeting clever quotes,
the #cjlive and the URL to this live page
to win signed books, also be thinking about questions.
Because I'm goin' to the phones as much as possible,
we are going to be goin' to the phones.
You can go to the phones by @chasejarvis,
@ramit, R-A-M-I-T, #cjlive.
We'll be pickin' up those questions
periodically throughout the course of the show, so do that.
We will try and get to as many questions,
again, this is a no bullshit, straight ahead,
answer your questions show.
Theory is nice, but we're gonna get to the meat.
This is, while we got you here,
why don't you tell me about this for a second.
- Well, I almost committed suicide 25 times
writing this book for two years.
It's hard writing it, but the reason I wrote it was,
people would come to me and they'd be like,
"Hey, what credit card should I use,"
or "I have 5000 dollars sitting in my savings account,
"what should I do with it,"
or "I make a lot of money,"
or "I make a decent amount of money,
"but I have nothing left at the end."
The funny thing is, and this is
getting inside people's minds,
think about most money books.
The first thing you do, you pick 'em up-
- I think they're cheesy, first of all.
They freak me out, from afar, I'm like oh-
- Cause there's a guy sitting on it like this,
"yeah, look at my suit." (Chase laughing)
You're like, "Ah, God, stop it," in your oversized suit.
These books, the first thing they do,
the first chapters they're like,
"Let's write down how much you spend everywhere."
You know what people are like?
They're like, "Mm, fuck this."
No one wants to do that.
Who wants to write how much they spend,
it's like a terrible feeling.
What I did was, this is all about the psychology,
I stated with credit cards.
We all have credit cards.
We all hate our credit cards.
We could all negotiate our credit cards
with one phone call and usually save
hundreds of dollars a month.
I actually gave the scripts that you can read off the phone,
and just melt 'em like butter.
Yeah, it's cool, and I'm glad people get started,
but the point of that is,
when you do book or when you walk into a client meeting,
what is it that people want,
and what do they not want?
What are their hopes, fears, and dreams?
- You tell me.
- Yeah, let's talk about the barriers for artists.
Why are creatives generally so terrible
at representing themselves?
- Well, mostly because I think they're introverted,
and they're all about their art,
and I would say that's a big portion of it,
but the number one is that there's some sort of,
there's a patronizing underpinning to making money.
If you somehow make money,
then you've sold out and you're bullshit.
I, for one, have fought the difference
between fine art and commercial art for a long time.
I see them as very fused.
We've been getting commissions for thousands of years.
I think that's the biggest problem.
If you're killin' it, then you're somehow not sweet,
and you've sold out.
- It happens when your peer group is around you.
They're looking at you and they're like,
"You're a sell out,"
or you're seeing these other magazines
and people are writing comments on the blog post like,
"This guy's a sell out.
"His stuff is not pure anymore."
So there's that.
I think there's a few other reasons too.
One is an over-focus on the craft.
Now, the craft matters, no doubt about it.
You have to be good, you have to be very good,
or even better, but it's easy to get
comfortable doing what we know.
For example, if I can write really good blog posts,
I could do that all day long,
but is that gonna grow my business to where I want it to go?
I see a lot of my creative friends, they're like,
"Oh I really need to get this new camera,"
or "I really need to spend another two years
"on this one piece of pixel perfection."
But really, does the client understand that?
Does the average client that they're
going after understand it?
Maybe at your level, but for most of us-
- No, no, actually, at my level it's further.
They assume that you have the technical,
that all that's just, if you showed up
and didn't have that, it's like,
there's 50 people standing around like,
"Who the fuck hired this guy?"
So, it's assumed that you have all that.
The way I talk about it often is professional golf.
You don't get to be on the PGA
for being sort of good.
You have to be able to hit the ball
down the middle of the fairway.
If it's raining, if there's 100 people watching
or 10 million people watching, it doesn't matter,
I think we can, just for sake of this conversation,
and for the folks at home,
that you can execute technically.
Let's just take that off the table,
cause if you don't, you need to keep practicing.
- Let me give you an example of one of my students.
This is one of my favorite examples.
I had this student of mine, her name is Jackie.
She lives in Minneapolis.
I believe she's in her late 20's,
just like this ordinary girl,
and she's a violin instructor.
She came to me and she's like,
"I wanna learn how to earn more using my skills."
Okay, she could have spent the next 20 years
becoming absolutely perfect at violin.
- But she was already- - A virtuoso.
- A virtuoso.
She was already very good.
We said all right, let's look at the business.
And so, she started talking about who she's serving.
Now, when you think about a violin instructor,
who really is their customer?
She was teaching kids, but kids cannot be your customer,
they don't have any money.
I'll teach a framework about how
to think about who your customer is.
She starts looking and we start analyzing it.
It turned out that her real customer
was basically Asian and Jewish parents.
Actually, Asian and Jewish mothers.
Why do you think that is?
They have money, they have the ability to pay,
and the willingness to pay.
We call that the pay certainty technique.
If you're thinking about, who am I actually serving,
the pay certainty technique,
do they have the ability to pay,
and do they have the willingness to pay?
- So, in the art world, this'd be your photo editor,
or your art buyer, your producer, the art director.
They technically are the ones who hire you.
Someone else writes the check,
but that's your customer.
- Got it. - Specifically.
So then, we helped her go deeper.
You can't just put a flyer together that says
violin instruction, come here, 50 dollars an hour.
We taught her how to understand,
what is it that these mothers actually want?
They're mothers of kids.
Now, yes they want their kids to learn violin, but why?
Let's go further, why?
It turned out that they wanted them to become
really good at this because
there's a heritage value of violin,
but what they really wanted is
for their son or daughter to get into Harvard.
That's what they wanted!
Believe it or not.
That totally reframed the way she positioned it.
Her flyers now say, little Timmy used to be
so introverted, now he's so extroverted
and I think he's gonna get an amazing education.
A mother reads that and she's like,
"Oh my God, they read my mind."
She earned, in eight weeks,
81,000 dollars doing violin instruction.
She coulda spent 20 years-
- I'm in the wrong line of business.
- But, she coulda spent so much time
focusing on the craft or just like putting it out there,
getting on Twitter, doing all this stuff,
and that all matters, you have to do some of that,
but let's understand the person we're trying to serve there.
- Let's take that no bullshit approach
to photographers and directors and whatnot
in the creative class here.
How do they take that same step
with the clients that I just mentioned?
The photo editors, the art directors, and whatnot.
Let's talk about what do these photo editors want,
and what do they fear?
Too many people skip over those two things.
- Number one thing that they want,
is they wanna be recognized by their peers
within the magazine or within their agency
for finding the next badass creative
who's doing cool stuff.
Their fear is, and anyone at home
or y'all in the audience can correct me,
but I think having been doing this
for a decade plus, I figured it out.
Their fear is blowing it,
bringing in someone who's unqualified
who hasn't ability to do this work before.
- Right, right.
- Doesn't have the ability,
and hasn't done this sort of level of work before.
They're risk averse, because usually that means
if I blow this half a million dollar campaign,
my ass is out the door.
What they're really banking on
when they bank on a photographer and a big campaign
is look it, we're putting the 300 thousand dollar
production budget plus the ad buy behind this.
Lot of money, lot of zeros.
Those are their fears,
and often the ability to hire the best,
the most perfect person, is undermined
by the fear factor of well, I'd sure like
to hire that new renegade creative over there,
but this dude's done it a hundred times.
Somewhere in the middle is perfection, I feel like.
Renegade, old-timer, somewhere in there
is the sweet spot.
- So think about how most photographers
go about addressing these concerns.
First of all, they don't even think about them.
They just walk in and they're like, "Me, me, me."
They walk in with their portfolio,
and they just (smacking) put it down on the table,
and they say, "There you go.
"You make the decision."
As if this person is supposed to understand
all the intricacies about why you're qualified.
Mistake number one is expecting the other person
to recognize your brilliance without
you even communicating it.
The next thing- - Can we-
- Yeah. - Can we linger on that,
for a second?
Expecting the other person, it's almost, it's ignorant
to expect the other person to recognize
your brilliance without even communicating it.
- You need to teach them to revere what you've done.
For example, when I give away free material to my audience,
and 90% of my stuff is free.
Not only do I give it to 'em for free,
but I teach them why they need to revere it.
I'll say, for example,
"Look guys, this webcast I did with one of my mentors,
"a professor from Stanford, I'm giving it to you for free.
"But I want to tell you, I spent 16 hours preparing for-"
- Hang on a second, Chase Jarvis Live is free,
(Ramit laughing) but I want to tell you
that I spent 10 years cultivating all of the, blah, blah.
Nevermind, just (mumbling).
- I tell 'em that, no, it's, you know what?
People, when they learn what you did behind the scenes
to prepare and all this preparation you've done,
all these people you've brought into your crew,
they appreciate you even more.
When you go in to meet a client,
you don't just put down your (smacking) portfolio,
you say, "Let me explain, for just 60 seconds
"if you don't mind, some of the thought
that went into this," and you explain
why they should revere you and what makes you different.
That's kinda number one.
Don't expect them to recognize your brilliance.
- I think we should say that again.
Explain to them, what went into creating the work,
and why it's different. - Absolutely.
- Why it's unique.
And in the world of art, ladies and gentlemen,
we remember from last Chase Jarvis Live,
where we had Allegra Wilde talking about portfolios,
you don't try to be better,
you try and be different.
Don't try and be better, try and be different.
When you take that 60 seconds
to explain and tell a story,
great book by, I think is it Peter Guber,
- Yeah - Tell to Win?
- Story, yeah. - Tell to Win.
Amazing, amazing book about telling a story.
You tell a story about what you went through
to create this work and why it's different
than what's out there.
- Yep. - Got it.
- Number two, and that dovetails perfectly.
They try to appeal to everybody.
This is like classic rookie mistake.
They believe that, I just need to appeal to everyone.
- I shoot cats and I shoot houses,
and I shoot weddings and I shoot advertising
and food, I shoot all that stuff, hire me.
- Hire me.
Let's just do a scenario.
Let's pretend that I'm- - Is this a role play?
Cause I'm getting excited. - It is,
are you ready? - I am getting excited.
- I'm gonna be the woman in this.
I'm a new mother.
This is a perfect role for me. (Chase chuckling)
It adapts very well- - You got the cardigan,
I love it. (Ramit laughing)
- So, I'm a new mother, and I want
a picture of my newborn son.
I just got home, it's two or three
days after I gave birth.
Who do I wanna hire?
I have two choices of photographers.
Do I wanna hire John Doe, who does photos
of horses, barns, kids, adults, and buildings?
Or, do I wanna hire Richard Millinghouse,
who photographs babies between the ages
of two weeks and three months.
- Enough said.
- Clear, right?
And by the way, does price matter?
- At that point, when you're talking about
photographing your one and only child
that you just gave birth to?
It's probably, when you say literally does it matter,
it becomes way less important than you think it is.
- Absolutely, so that is so important
with photographers and anyone in the creative world.
Lot of times, we obsess about price.
Well, how can I charge that much?
This guy's over here charging 10 dollars a photo.
How can I expect to charge 100 dollars an hour
or 10,000 dollars a project?
When you can really hit on what they want,
what they hope, fear, and dream,
price becomes almost a mere triviality.
Mr. Richard Millinghouse could come in and say,
"Look, there are plenty of other photographers out there.
"In fact, I'm happy to recommend some if you like.
"I happen to be the only one who focuses on it.
"By the way, here are some of my photos that I've done,
"and here's why they're different
"from some of the stuff you'll find."
Notice, I haven't been adversarial.
I've been super friendly,
and price is a distant fifth.
- It's vaporizing right now.
- Absolutely, right, you can feel it.
- I do, I'd wanna buy your baby photos.
(both chuckling) - My baby photos, yeah.
Let me sell you some photography Chase.
That would be my ultimate accomplishment.
All these things kind of combine,
when it comes to photographers and other creative folks,
that we think let's just appeal to everyone.
It's almost counterintuitive,
but the narrower you go,
especially when you're starting off,
the more that that specific person
will pay essentially anything to get what you want.
I'll just finish with one final thing.
The craft is important, no doubt,
but you have to understand what your clients want.
For example, I have a video crew,
and I have some designers on staff that work with me.
Now, are there people that
are probably, technically more skilled?
Of course, there's always somebody.
- However- - That's why I advocate
not trying to be better, but be different.
- Yes. - Okay.
- They are different, indeed,
because they know that what I value is when I send an email,
I want a response within one hour.
That's just how I want my business to run.
They know that they need to over communicate with me.
So for me, communication matters way more
than getting this perfect shading or perfect color.
It's gonna be good, no doubt about that,
but I would rather have someone,
that for my business,
serves me in the way that I want.
Someone could come to me,
and if they didn't read me right they would say,
"Look at these 50 photos.
"I used this type of film and I used this type of lighting."
And I'm just like, "I don't care.
"Show me testimonials of how you've
"communicated well with other people.
"When you do that, price is out the door.
"You're focusing on what I want.
"What I want, not you.
"What I, the client, wants, and price is just a triviality."
- So, at that point, what we have to agree to,
if I'm not mistaken and correct me if I'm wrong,
is that you have to do something
to get inside the head of the person
who's trying to hire you.
You have to understand what they want.
You can make guesses, and you can be wrong,
but by and large, I think specifically
within the photo industry,
the people that hire you whether
you're a wedding shooter and it's a bride,
or whether it's a photo editor or something,
are there steps that you can take?
Should you be doing research?
How do you understand, how do you advocate
us understanding our clients?
- The research is the secret sauce.
This is what separates the people
who can charge 100 times what other people can,
and honestly can just get cool projects,
versus the other people who
will scrape by for the rest of their lives,
and that'll complain about the man,
and if only I had that, then I could get these clients.
Let me just show you some examples of research.
Let's say that you're a wedding photographer.
You've decided to get into this space.
You have some photos under your belt.
Maybe you've done it informally
and free for some friends.
What would be a good way of doing it?
First, I would wanna just start off
by saying who I am trying to target.
I'm not trying to target every person.
- Every person who's getting married.
- Yeah, that's gonna be a tough one.
First of all, my customer is the bride.
It's certainly not the groom, it's the bride.
Let's just be specific.
And by the way, I'm making stereotypes right now.
It's okay to start off with broad stereotypes,
and then you test 'em.
We do this.
We call it the five minute straight jacket technique.
We turn off our phone, turn off our computers.
We basically just close our eyes,
and we think, what is this bride's experience right now?
She's three months from the wedding.
She's feeling xyz.
She's go this to-do list that's not getting,
everything's getting added to it,
and she wants to get these beautiful photos.
Why, why does she want these photos?
She wants to show off.
She wants to show it to her friends.
She wants to have a memory.
What does she not want?
She doesn't want a photographer
who's gonna show up late,
who's gonna do a horrible job, blah, blah, blah.
So, we just visualize this.
We stereotype, we write it down.
- It's amazing how simple this is.
How many in the audience, show of hands,
have closed your eyes and thought,
what do the people that want to hire me actually want?
Show of hands.
Five of thirty. - Yeah.
Five of thirty, okay. - Okay.
So we do this thing, we're sitting here,
closed eyes, straight jacket technique,
but then we need to take it another step.
We have these stereotypes, these ideas.
Let's go test 'em.
What I tell people is turn off your computer,
get out of your stupid room,
go talk to the market.
What I would do is find women who were just married,
recently married brides.
I would say, "Do you mind if just
"take you out to coffee for 15 minutes?
"I'm trying to get into this.
"I'm doing a little homework,
"not trying to sell you anything.
"Just curious about your experience,
"and I would really appreciate your time."
If you send an email like that,
especially through a warm friend-
- This is so simple. - Yeah.
- No secrets. - So simple.
Send an email.
Out of 10 emails you send, you will get
at least three meetings.
That's a pretty good response rate.
I take 'em out, and I'm just saying,
"Tell me about your experience with the wedding."
I just start off really broadly,
and re-emphasize I'm not trying to sell anything.
Then ask them, "How did you choose your photographer?
"Were you happy, what would you have changed?
"If price was no object, what would you have wanted?"
Ask them about their feelings.
How did they feel when they chose the photographer?
Why'd they choose this over that?
Now you do this with 5 to 10 people.
You start to hear words.
For example, you'll hear words like,
"I wasn't sure but my friend used him
"and he was really good.
"She was really happy with him."
Okay, that's a really important thing.
Or, "I loved how when he showed up,
"he brought me a cup of coffee that morning.
"It showed that he was thoughtful."
That's a check mark, I'm writing that down.
All of the sudden, now, you're learning
what actual customers have said.
Guess what you do?
Just like with Jackie, you go back,
and in your marketing material,
you put that in there.
Now when you go to your potential clients,
they're like, "Oh my God-
- They're reading my mind. - He read my mind.
How did he do that?
Well, he did it because he did the hard work.
- Well, that's great.
Again, I'm gonna reference last week's
Chase Jarvis Live with Allegra.
She was saying, again, it's the technical,
you get in the door with being a decent photographer,
but when you're in the sphere
of being a great photographer,
that's when the cream rises to the top.
It is, I gotta go to Barbados for two weeks with this dude.
Who do I wanna hang out with for two weeks?
I see him at six in the morning,
and I see him at 10 at night,
all day, every day for 20 days or 15 days.
Who do you wanna be with?
Things like, what kind of music you like,
what kind of person you are, having a blog,
or some sort of social thing
where you're putting out the things
that you are and aren't.
You shouldn't be trying to fool these people, right?
- Talk about that for a second.
- It's so important to disqualify.
So think about this, let's just take it to
men and women and attraction.
I love this because there's so many analogies-
- I love this too. - I love it.
So, let's dim the lights please.
- Yes please.
- If I go to a bar and I'm like,
"Please, please, please talk to me.
"Please go on a date with me.
"Please, please, please, please."
How do you think women react?
They're just like,
you know, they don't,
however, if I walk in, I'm confident,
I'm with my buddies having a drink,
and you know, I'm just like a confident guy
that doesn't need anything that night,
the perception is totally different.
The same thing is true when you go talk to clients.
I'm not walking in begging
when I put my portfolio down.
I'm saying, "Look, I'm not right for everybody.
"For the few people that I'm right for,
"I do an extraordinary job.
"I'm here to help figure out what you want,
"that's- - Both those are so quotable
it makes me smile.
I'm here, for what I do,
I can deliver an extraordinary product.
I can deliver extraordinary art.
That, to me, and even just saying those words,
- Isn't it rare? - I've been in
a thousand of these meetings.
I've personally, with me as the artist,
but I've also been a part of other meetings
where others are coming in and presenting.
Those words never get said.
- No, no, cause it almost is like,
it seems like you have to be arrogant to say it.
Let's listen to the way that I say it again.
I can do an extraordinary job.
Not for everybody, but for the few people
that I wanna work with,
and that wanna work with me.
Nothing about that was arrogant.
I'm just being very matter of fact.
You don't have to come in like,
"Yeah, I'm the best."
That's not how you're walking in.
You're being confident about what you're good at.
- I've also seen a lot of people
behave like d-bags, (Ramit laughing)
and that's not cool either, right?
- No, no.
- But there is a way to be confident and assertive
without being presumptuous,
without being a d-bag, without being cocky.
It's, I think, accepting
that you aren't for everybody.
Again, I'm gonna, the third time already,
refer back to last week's episode.
Hey look it, I think you need
to get hired by 10 to 20 folks,
in my line of work at least.
Wedding photographers might be a little bit different.
Studio, headshot photographers could be different.
I need to shoot, you know, if I shoot
10 to 20 campaigns a year,
it's an amazing year.
You don't have to appeal to everybody.
As soon as you start trying to appeal to everybody,
you appeal to nobody, so actually putting that
on the table in the conversation,
that's what you're advocating right?
- That's what I do with my own business as well.
For example, I tell people if you have credit card debt,
you're not allowed to buy my flagship course.
You're not allowed to, I don't allow you to.
If I find out, I'll refund your money,
and I'll ban you from any course ever again.
People are like, "What the fuck?
"Who does that?"
- Who doesn't want to take money from somebody?
- Who doesn't want to take a lot of money from me?
And yet, what does it do for me, in my business?
Yeah, it costs me a lot in the short term,
but people know this guy isn't just here
to make a bunch of money from me right up front.
He's here to help me for the rest of my life.
Now the same thing is true when we go into meetings, right?
You're not going in there
to convince them and trick them.
You do want to show your best front,
and you wanna have your messages
that you wanna explain why might
you be the best for this project.
You're never gonna try to trick them.
No magical phrases.
I'll give you a bunch of phrases,
but no magical phrase will ever trick someone,
and even if you do, you'll get found out later.
You wanna be very clear about who you're targeting.
Like with Jackie, she's targeting
a very specific type of customer.
When you do that, that's why 80% of the work
is done before you ever walk in the room.
You've already- - Okay, this is good.
- Yeah, so- - This is, everyone's hand,
everyone's heads are down, scribbling away.
- So number one, who am I going after?
It's not everyone.
We're using that five minute straight jacket technique,
and we're using the pay certainty technique.
Do they have the ability to pay?
And, do they have the willingness to pay?
- Most people in our line of work do.
There's a lot of shooting weddings.
I know people that make a million dollars a year
shooting weddings, so there's money there.
With maternity photography, there's money there.
Certainly with advertising, galleries,
high end fine art, there's a lot of money there.
That doesn't tend to be a problem,
that can they pay.
Yes, they can pay. - Excellent.
So then, we've talked about who are they,
do they have the ability and willingness to pay, great.
Now, we're gonna start generally
stereotyping in our head, that straight jacket technique.
What is their experience?
What are they looking for?
Then, we're gonna test it.
Then, we're gonna go into these meetings,
and we're gonna have scenario planned out
every which way that they could do it.
Notice, by the way, that what I'm talking about
is not taking massive shortcuts.
I actually believe, to get disproportionate results,
you gotta work twice as hard as someone else,
But if you work on the right things,
you can get five times the results.
It's a totally different mindset
than most people think.
They're like, "Let me just continue
"sending out these pitch books,
"blah, blah, blah," nothing will happen.
I'm like, "Let's do a bunch of work up front,"
and then if you do it right,
this other person's gonna go like this,
and you're spending a lot time here,
and all of the sudden, you're gonna surpass them.
You go into these meetings,
and now you're using your words.
You're using your phrases.
You're talking about negotiation.
You're talking about why you do extraordinary work,
and am I right, I'm not sure,
but let me tell you a little bit about what I do,
and how I might be able to help you.
So, we talked about the briefcase technique.
Should we talk about that?
- Oh yeah, this is amazing.
- All right. - You could just right now,
call it the briefcase technique,
you should put it in boldface
in whatever note device you're taking right now,
cause this shit blew my mind
when he told it to me and-
- So let me show- - Again, I have to confess,
I have been doing this,
showing my portfolio for 10 plus years,
and getting super kick ass jobs.
I started doing this,
and it was like (snapping) a light switch.
Scott, who's helped me do a lot of this work
is on camera A right there, or camera two,
I think, will back me up.
It's incredibly effective.
- This is a simple technique.
It's generated several millions of dollars.
- It's laughable how easy it is.
- It is, it's unbelievable.
In fact, people, especially technical people,
are really skeptical, they're like,
"This sucks for me.
"This is so salesy, it doesn't work."
And then I'm like, "Oh really?
"Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom."
50 testimonials of how it's generated
70% raises and things like that.
Let me show you how it works.
You go into a meeting,
and you're talking to your client
or the hiring manager, whoever it may be.
You start by asking a lot of questions.
Tell me about kind of what you're looking for,
and oh, that's interesting.
How have you thought about xyz,
and what are the issues you're thinking about?
You're just asking great questions.
- Ask great questions is,
I can not overstate how important that is,
especially in a creative,
because you're getting hired
to solve a creative problem.
So ask a lot of questions.
- Ask great questions.
And so they're saying, "You know,
"our biggest challenges are x, y, and z.
"And we're really confident about abc,
"but we're just not sure about this.'
You say, "Okay, that's really interesting,
"so I had a few thoughts.
"Would it be okay if I share some of them with you?"
You're asking permission,
cause you want to get their respect.
They say, "Of course."
You say, "Well, you know I actually
"prepared a couple things, I wonder
"if you'd like to see it?"
Then you literally theatrically go like this-
- You reach down into - Into your briefcase-
- Your portfolio. - Or your portfolio,
or your back, whatever it is,
you say, "There's actually four things
"that I would think about.
"Take a look at this."
You say, "Let me walk you through it.
"When I look at your website,
or "I look at the project that you've outlined,
"the first thing I thought was abc."
At this point, they're like this,
they're going, "Yeah."
They can't stop nodding,
and they almost can't stop smiling.
It's happened hundreds of times.
Why, why does this work?
Let's talk about a couple reasons.
The psychology's totally fascinating.
First of all, nobody does this.
People walk in, and they're just like, "Oh yeah."
They ask stupid questions
and then they just try to sell themselves.
They believe that a client meeting,
or a interview or negotiation,
is about answering questions.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.
An interview's not about answering questions.
It's about telling your story,
and communicating your main messages.
When people go into a job interview,
or a prospect meeting,
it's not about answering the prospect's questions.
Yes, you have to do that,
just like you have to be good at your craft.
But, you have to communicate your message of why.
Second, when you pull out your briefcase technique,
what it means is holy shit,
this guy has done a ton of work
outside this meeting, before he got in the room,
which automatically separates you from everyone else.
What do other people do?
They just walk in and they answer questions.
Third, the things you're writing on this,
are the exact words that you learned from your research,
when you talked to the other brides or mothers.
So they're like- - Or art directors,
or creative directors, or art buyers,
ad agencies, or photo editors.
You are literally using their words.
You're looking at them and that's why
they're going like, "Yeah, yeah, oh my God.
"He knew this before I even said it," yeah.
- So what you're doing in that case,
I'm gonna continue to verbalize
using my industry's words.
You're gonna say that they thought about,
your client might think this is too risky,
but here are some ways that you can talk to them
about overcoming the risk,
or that it's really not risky.
It might be more risky to look like everybody else,
instead of looking like- - Perfect.
- Something, something adventurous and forward thinking.
- When you sit down, I'm just theorizing now,
when you sit down with the wedding photographer,
it's like when you sit down to show
your wedding photographs to your friends,
what you wanna be able to show
is something that is different
than the ones that they showed to their friends.
That's a goal, perhaps.
- I have a new addition to this,
that I haven't really shared publicly.
I'd like to share it right now.
This is version two of the briefcase technique,
and I've been testing it, it works really well.
One thing that people love,
is they love these kind of high notions,
like an outline of the things that you're talking about,
but they also love to get really tactical.
What I like to do now,
if it's for a job in a job interview,
I like to do a 30, 60, 90 day plan.
What will I do in the first
30 days, 60 days, and 90 days.
People look at it and they're like, "Oh my God."
Their jaw drops.
Now with a creative project,
you could say in the first week,
I'd wanna do research.
I'd wanna study what other people have done,
and my deliverable would be, "blah, blah, blah."
And then in the second week, and in the third week,
and in the fourth week I would deliver
the pictures to you and we could do a review.
What this does for people,
especially the art directors and things,
totally mitigates their risk.
Now, they have a piece of paper
and they're just like, "This is it."
They look at it and they're like,
"I can delegate this to this person.
"I trust him," and it's a done deal.
You've moved price to the fifth or tenth concern,
and now they have a document.
There's something profound about a document,
rather than just talking about it.
It means you've prepared it on paper,
and people just, they're blown away.
- I read a study recently that was,
it was a study of 10,000 negotiations over 12 years,
or some absurd, gigantor study,
and there was one thing in common
that produced a successful sale
or license, or win, for the purveyor of the goods.
That was, one indicator, and that was
who did the most talking.
In all of the most successful negotiations,
the prospect, or the potential higherer,
did the most talking.
I mean, we're talking high end research, I think it was
Oxford or MIT, some crazy ass research
that said that if you can get the other person
to do most of the talking, tell them your problems,
that is the biggest hurdle.
It really sends this message that I'm getting from you,
which is that you've been thinking about their problems,
not just how do I pitch you my shit.
I understand that I'm solving problems for you.
The irony is if you can be crazy ass creative,
and show them just the most beautiful work,
and have this sort of head on your shoulders,
and you don't need to be in there slick,
you can be humble and say,
"Yeah, prior to our meeting,
"I've been thinking about this a lot,
"and I think this is, positioning it like this,
"I went out and shot some test stuff for example,
"and this is your last ad layout,
"I just put my images in it- - Love that.
- "but, this is the sort of thing I'm going for."
Now that takes balls or huevos or ovaries
or whatever we wanna talk about here, whatever signifier.
When you actually can say what you think,
and believe it deeply in every pore in your body,
that comes across so convincingly.
- Yeah, it does.
Let's deconstruct that, cause I think that's so fascinating.
Why don't most people
spend more time asking questions?
I'll tell you why.
They believe that a prospect meeting, or an interview,
is about answering questions.
They basically walk into a room and they say (smacking),
- "I'm here." - "I'm here.
"What would you like to ask me?"
Wrong! (hands slapping)
You already lost, because everyone else
is doing the exact same thing.
They're just waiting.
You walk in there, and you say,
"I am thrilled to be here.
"I have been thinking about this all week,
"and I have a bunch of ideas.
"Actually, I have a bunch of questions
"if it's okay to ask you,
"but it's your meeting, so love to have you begin."
Now, what happens there,
you're gonna start leading by asking questions,
you're letting them talk and guess what?
People, it's rare in this world
that people actually feel understood.
So, when you ask these three
or four or five great questions,
they're like, even though you don't even offer a solution,
just the fact that you asked the right question.
They're like, "Yeah, this guy gets me."
It's an uncanny thing, when someone
asks the right questions,
you feel like you're understood.
And then if you kind of double-take it
with a briefcase technique or a portfolio technique,
done, it's a done deal.
- It's like the one-two punch, ha-ki-gah!
All right, cool.
Let's take two second, I wanna go,
I don't know which camera's live
cause the tally lights aren't working very well,
but I'm gonna go to Scott's camera,
cause I think that's what's happenin'.
I'm Chase Jarvis, you're here at Chase Jarvis Live.
I'm with Ramit Sethi, number one Amazon,
New York Times bestselling author
of this fancy book here, I Will Teach You to be Rich,
and we're talkin' specifically about how to apply,
you're a behavioral psychologist by nature,
how to specifically apply those ideas
to selling or promoting your own art.
We, as artists, are terrible at this.
It's a known fact, so go ahead and ask some questions
at #cjlive, use my Twitter handle @chasejarvis.
Of course you should also be following @ramit, R-A-M-I-T.
We'll go to the phones in just a second.
I'm gonna turn to the audience and say,
at this point, we're kind of 30, 40 minutes in.
If you don't have any questions,
I'm going to be embarrassed and upset.
Put you hand in the air and ask a question,
because there's gotta be something very specific.
Yes, sir, you went first.
Oh, use the mic if you would.
- A lot of what you're talking about
is how to interact with people
after you've actually had a sit down with them,
and you have touched a little bit
on being able to differentiate the market
that you're going after.
I'm trying to get a greater understanding
what your thought is on how we as photographers
can go after those market segments specifically
to be able to maybe stir up those initial contacts.
- So how do you get to even get in front of someone
that could potentially hire you, great question.
The typical way, I think that photographers do it,
is they take a bunch of photos and they put it on a website,
and then they set up Twitter and Facebook,
and then they wait.
Where are the people? (Chase chuckling)
Where are my multi-thousand dollar clients?
Where are they?
The thing I would suggest is,
I actually prefer going direct.
My goal, when I teach my students
to begin kind of freelancing,
I tell them they have one goal.
In eight weeks, their goal
is to get three paying clients.
It does not matter what the price is.
It doesn't matter if they even
offer you an insulting fee, that's fine.
Three, why three?
Cause your first client might be your mom,
second one might be your cousin,
but the third one's not a fluke.
Third one means you've got something going on,
where three people have paid you.
Here's how I do it.
I do my initial research.
Remember where I go out to the market
and I kinda ask these questions,
at the end, hopefully they like me enough, right?
I've said a couple things, they like me.
I say, "You know, I'm not ready to do this yet,
"but I'm probably gonna start doing it in a couple months.
"Do you think there might be
"anyone that might be interested in this?"
Totally low-key, I'm not being salesy at all.
If they like you, they'll say,
"You know what, yeah, actually, I have a couple friends.
"Let me introduce you."
Okay great, now here's where most people fall down.
They just say, "Okay, thanks a lot,"
and they go home and wait for that to happen to them.
Again, you've already lost if you do that.
Instead, what I do is I follow up with an email and say,
"Hey, thanks very much for meeting, loved it,
"and I'm happy to take you out to coffee any time.
"You mentioned Ali and Jen, and if you don't mind,
"I'd love for an introduction.
"In fact, here's a forwardable email, if it helps.
"Feel free to forward it or edit it,
"just to make your life easier."
So, I'm being kind of really helpful,
and then I'm getting introductions that way.
The second way is, so that's kinda
using the referral strategy.
The second is to become a thought leader.
Now this is a bit of a long-term play,
so especially people who live in smaller cities,
imagine doing an art critique,
or even doing a free column for the local paper.
I'm just giving out simple examples.
Or working with the local blogs.
This is more of a long-term play,
because it's kind of like,
where are you getting these clients from,
it's gonna take you a while.
When you become the photographer
who does an analysis every week in the local paper,
and you say, "Here's how to take a great photo,
"and here's what most people are doing when they do photos,"
you instantly become the go-to guy, or the go-to woman.
There are two routes that I would do.
I like the first, the direct route,
going to find people directly,
sending those emails and saying,
"Hey, love to take you out to coffee,"
and then giving them a really soft incentive
to kind of share with their friends.
- That's beautiful.
I went to the phones. - All right.
- Focal Matter asked this question,
which I thought was pretty funny.
@focalmatter, "I have a nine to five job.
"How do I successfully transition
"out of this nine to five job
"into a full time life as a creative?"
I want to stab at this if- - Yeah, please.
- I wanna hear what you have to say but,
cause this is something I've talked
at length about online,
when I give talks in front of large audiences,
because it's a very popular question.
The answer is, I can't believe this
isn't taught in business school,
because I think it's one of the most important,
sort of real-world techniques that you have to,
you have to be able to be juggling this over here,
and then throw this ball up,
or you have to be juggling this
and throw this ball up,
and go over here and work like mad.
It sounds very, very strange,
but in our modern world,
if you want something,
there is ample time for you to go get it.
If Tim Ferriss was sittin' right here,
he would remind us to prioritize the things in our lives.
If you can keep your nine to five happy,
actually in the hours of nine to five,
my God, there's so much other time.
Transitioning into that means doing all these things
like you talked about, doing the market research.
Again, we're assuming that your pictures kick ass.
We're assuming that your video kicks ass.
If you need to start there,
with the fundamentals of making your pictures good,
then definitely start there.
Once you have that quality,
then it's about identifying your target market,
the straight jacket technique, preparing,
identifying your clients.
Who do you want to do, work with?
To me, that's one of the most important things.
Do you try, my hit list is 20 people deep.
It's not 200, it's 20.
There are photographers who will send out 1,000 mailers.
It's just like carpet bombing.
- You've done something wrong, if you have to do that.
- You've already messed up,
cause you're just playing the same game
that everyone else is playing.
There's always gonna be someone better,
with more time, with more money,
that could just carpet bomb a larger audience.
You've already lost, if that's the game you're playing.
The game happens.
It's almost a game that's being played around you,
that you can't even see.
It's an invisible game of who makes the right decisions
before they ever get to that meeting.
Who decides who they're gonna target,
what are they gonna say,
how are they gonna get in their heads?
Then, when you get there,
to the outside person it seems magical.
(snapping fingers) How does Chase get
into these meetings (snapping) and he just
closes them left and right?
Well, Chase did all the work beforehand.
- Right, there's this belief- - And now when he walks in-
- That you didn't have to do the work,
or that somehow, yeah, that's bullshit for sure.
I think I can say that
with basically everyone who I employ.
There's a very specific story around that,
and Norton is a great example.
Norton was living, if I'm not mistaken, in Brazil,
and he wanted to come to the US
to learn from photographers.
Ernie should wave to the camera,
I think they're gonna put you on camera.
(Ramit and Chase chuckling)
Norton moved from Brazil to Florida
because he wanted to get closer
to the American photography scene.
In Florida, he was acquainted with my work,
and he freakin' quit everything and moved to Seattle.
Not with the prospect of,
"Oh, Chase and I had a conversation.
"He's probably gonna hire me."
He's like, "If I'm gonna try and get a job
"from this guy, I gotta be around.
"That's my number one thing."
This is what I'm talking about,
I'm saying doing the homework.
How many of you all are willing to do that,
to get a client, to get a job?
That takes those huevos, those ovaries, those balls
that we were talkin' about earlier.
To me, that's the homework.
I think, if you're seguing or segmenting,
yeah, seguing out of your nine to five,
you have to do the work.
You have to be great at your craft.
You have to do the work,
and at some point, you're gonna start earning money.
You're gonna shoot on the weekends,
then you're gonna shoot after work,
and whether you're shooting the club scene,
or portraits, have a photo studio in you garage.
And then when you start to have enough money over here,
you start to look over here.
That starts being less exciting,
and then you take the ball
that you were throwing up really high at your job,
and you move that over,
and you just juggle with these two hands,
and you tell your boss to kiss it.
- Yeah, you know for us,
when we did our research
on people earning money on the side,
which has a lot of close analogies
to what we're talking about here,
that there were two huge barriers.
Number one, I don't have an idea.
Number two, I don't have enough time.
We actually have a two-hour time clinic
on how to save, basically, I think it's
three to five hours a week.
I can send it to your readers,
if you guys want.
- Wow. - Let me get it
put together for my staff.
We have a URL actually set up for you guys,
but I'll make sure that they,
they're watching right now,
hey guys, so make sure they put the time clinic on there.
- It's- - Time clinic.
- Yeah, it's a time clinic.
and they'll go there and they can just sign up,
and we'll send them the time clinic for free.
- So I think they'll like that.
- Hopefully your staff is running around,
just started stirring. - They're like,
"Oh shit, Ramit, not again."
- Oh, promises, take a picture.
This is with the new Polaroid Z340.
(camera clicking) Boom, take that!
- Nice. (hand smacking)
- Goin' back here, for some questions.
Let's have it.
Come on, put your hand in the air
and wave it like you just don't care.
If I don't get one, I'm gonna be disappointed.
Yep, you know you wanted to ask it.
- In a market like Seattle.
It's not a huge market.
You'd mentioned about, you know,
I don't want to be the guy who does everything,
but could you talk a little bit
how the market and the size of the market
depends on that.
Sometimes, if you're in a small market,
you kinda have to do more than just
I can't shoot pictures of whatever it might be.
I've gotta kinda be a little bit of a
jack of all trades in order to have
those multiple income streams to make it,
especially in this economy.
So, could you talk a little bit about that?
In the Seattle market especially,
how that's, how you can do that.
- Yeah, a couple things.
Certainly, when you start off,
it might be the case that you have
to do a jack of all trades.
Unless you want to do that forever,
then you quickly want to figure out,
where can I, what's the most profitable way,
and the most enjoyable thing that I can do?
If it's taking pictures of pets, great.
Remember that, when you find 1, 2, 3, 5 clients,
they all have friends that probably would be interested.
A couple things happen.
One, as you start to do all these things,
you start to say, which of these is gonna
give me the closest to my goals?
For example, it might be that taking pictures
of brides is highly, highly lucrative,
and that's what you want.
Your goal is to make money.
Or it might be that you want a lifestyle
where you can just shoot on the weekends
and not during the week, fine.
So you find those people,
get a couple of those clients,
and then you can do a couple things.
One is, you can ask them for referrals.
Who do they know?
Soon, you become basically the go-to guy.
Now, this doesn't happen over night.
It takes a long time, but for example,
when people talk about financial automation,
they come to me.
I have become known as that guy.
Or, psychology of money, they come to me.
Now, do they come to me for budgets?
No, and that's okay.
The second thing is to also broaden
the vision of thinking about it.
Yes, you may be local here in Seattle,
but remember that there is a huge amount
of work outside of Seattle that you could do.
It could be that you do it online.
It could be that you fly somewhere.
There are a variety of different ways,
and I understand there are certain
particulars about photography.
It's tough, especially when you're starting out,
but remember that for the people that work for me,
for example, I haven't met some of them
and they've worked for me for over a year.
There are other people, especially now,
it's crazy right, crazy. - Yeah, it's so cool.
There are a lot of different ways you can do it,
besides just thinking about working locally.
Think broadly, think in a kaleidoscope way,
and realize that there are tons of people
who want awesome photographers
with awesome communication skills,
and all these other skills
that most creative people don't think about at all,
and realize that there are
an unlimited number of those people out there.
- That's beautiful, I'm gonna second that.
The fact that I live in Seattle
is an anomaly to most of my peers,
like wow, how'd he do that.
I do spend a lot of time in New York, months at a time.
We have lived in Paris.
The idea, however, is that
I have projected a global image.
I do travel a lot, but that has to do
with picking the people that I want
to work with more than anything in the world,
and targeting them regardless of geography.
Who do my skills match up with?
Not being afraid to say that,
and to let them know that this
is what I want to solve this particular problem for you.
I'm a great match with your need,
and being able to prove it
through the briefcase technique,
through other work that I've done, et cetera.
It is a global economy now,
I mean we're taking questions right now
from all over the world.
If that had any, if anyone was doubting
if it's a global economy,
the example of sitting here in this room
should remind us that it is.
But specifically, have the huevos
to think larger than Seattle.
10% of my work comes from this city.
10%, and I have called this place home
for the duration of my professional career.
I think that there's something to think about
that goes beyond geography.
I don't know, I'm sort of losing my train of thought,
but I'm gonna go back to the phones-
- Let's do it. - if I can.
I don't know if you felt like we got to what you were after.
Hey Norton, will you grab that other,
you had another great question
that came in through some,
I'm not able to keep up with the feed
cause it's going so fast.
Ambient Magic asks,
"If you have quality content and decent web traffic,
"how do you turn those views into sales?"
- Ah. - So, so, this is,
yeah, hang on just one second Norton.
This is a really interesting question
because mostly, now it has to do
very much with what kind of photography you're into,
because people that check out my site,
I don't necessarily try and convert them.
It's not really a conversion thing,
where I get 'em in there,
and I move 'em through the marketing funnel,
and then I get a sale. (Ramit chuckling)
I think it could be more like that
in a portrait or a maternity or a wedding
sort of environment,
but what I try and project is great pictures.
I keep them coming back
by doing really, really interesting personal projects
This also is, this is like doing your homework,
it's very analogous, except the homework
that I'm doing is super creative shit
that I know that they want,
and that has to do with the straight jacket.
I think about, boy, what's gonna get them?
It's gonna be something they haven't seen before.
I'm out there trying to do things
that people haven't seen before,
and I've cited a number of examples.
Songs for Eating and Drinking is a great example
of a project that I did that had no financial benefit,
in fact, I paid a lot of money to make it happen,
that people, art directors are constantly thinking about,
"Aw man, I want to be around rock stars,
"and be in the cool pictures,
"and having dinner with 40 really fascinating people,"
and the pictures that come out of that are amazing.
It's another sense of actually doing homework.
When they come to your site,
in the photography world it's less of a turn-key,
click here, here are my rates.
It can be, again, I'm trying to speak broadly.
I feel like it's getting them to understand
that over and over, you are their solution.
When you start to think about who is coming to your site,
or you can find out who's coming to your site,
you proactively go to them with a meeting,
and you say, "I can tell you've been on my site,"
or "I've started marketing to you.
"I don't know if you've seen my site lately,
"I got these new projects.
"I wanna talk to you about 'em."
It's a very, very proactive deciding
who you wanna work with and going after them fact,
rather than this is what he just described,
or she, Ambient Magic just described,
is the "I made some good stuff
"and now I'm sitting back and waiting."
- Right, right.
Well, they're waiting because
it's a classic thing that we do.
Again, they're waiting for someone
to recognize their brilliance,
instead of going out there
and understanding what people want.
People don't just want the picture.
In fact, there's probably 100 other photographers
who could do that same photo.
They want the story.
They want the narrative.
They want the communication.
They want their problems solved.
You gotta understand, first of all,
what are those problems that they want solved?
Articulate it, put it on your website,
and if you want, you know there's
a bunch of tactics we can talk about.
You can create tee shirts
or you can sell prints, or whatever,
but remember that you have to
communicate that story to them.
One other tactic I'll share,
probably the biggest business mistake I made,
I mentioned this earlier.
- Wow. - Was-
- This is the biggest business mistake
the business guru has made.
- Not starting an email list early enough.
My email list is my crown jewel.
These are the people that signed up.
They love me enough to open my emails.
I only send 'em great stuff.
Guess what, all these people come
to your site every day,
it's mentioned that they have decent traffic.
Let's say you get 20 people a day to sign up,
or at one point 100, 200, that's a lot.
You don't have to sell them anything.
Hey, I'm workin' on this project.
Hey, I'm gonna be out in Seattle,
would love to do a meetup with you guys,
and one day when you have a project
that you want to sell,
or you say, "I have some open time
"and I'm taking a couple of commissions right now."
5000 people just received that email.
Do you think you're gonna get
one or two sales from that?
Starting an email list, it's really simple.
There's tons of tools out there.
I use Aweber, you can use whatever you want.
These people wanna listen to you.
Send 'em great stuff, nurture the relationship,
and by the time you go to ask for something,
they will love you so much
that they'd be happy to do it.
Another question from the Twitosphere.
This is from Nicole Notes.
"What if my husband is the photographer,
"and I'm the communicator?
"How can we work the briefcase scenario together?"
Now, so what I'm thinking is
she's the sales person in the arrangement,
not necessarily in the family,
that they sell together.
So he's the photographer,
they go out, she sells the thing.
In my opinion, you should chime in on this,
but the creative needs to do the presentation.
The business folk, like I have a business manager,
Gerard, he's in the house, right there
back with headphones on, what, what, buddy.
In the case we get called in
on a really cool project,
I have vision going in.
The briefcase technique I learned from you,
it's not literally sometimes a briefcase,
it's actually just being able
to articulate the vision that you have for the client.
So Gerard makes the meeting,
shows up at the meeting, and as soon as he gets there,
it's like, okay, I'm communicating with the client,
and I wanna present Chase.
Chase is here to talk to you
a little bit about the work.
It's always very gracious,
and having some social gratitude
without being slick and cheesy is helpful.
I proceed to lay out my vision,
after we've asked all the questions,
after we've done the stuff that you talked about,
getting the other folks to say what their problems are.
You say, "Great, I've heard what you said,
"and I actually prepared something."
Then I will lay that out.
I think it's the creative that needs to do that
because that's where the vision is coming from.
Then, that's when you kick it back
to your communicator.
In this case, the wife, if I'm not mistaken.
Then the wife'll like, "Okay, cool, I hope
"that resonates with ya.
"We'll follow up this meeting."
Then she'll sort of close the meeting,
a lot of hand shakes and gratitude,
and then good follow up is really, really important.
So, do you have anything to comment about that?
- Just a couple things
I wanna hook your audience up with.
First of all, I agree it's funny
that sometimes people believe
that they don't have enough time
to learn the marketing part of it.
I knew this restaurant owner near me.
I wrote most of my book at this coffee shop.
I mentioned to him one day,
"Hey, what about marketing this and that,"
because I became friends with him.
He said, "Yeah, yeah I know I really should do that.
"I don't have time to do it."
His restaurant shut down not long after.
I agree that you always,
if you're the creative person,
you need to take the time
to be able to articulate your vision.
Otherwise, it just looks like
you're delegating it off to someone else,
and you're just the technician.
That's not a role you wanna be in.
- That's a great idea, let's say that again.
You do not wanna be the technician.
You wanna be the vision.
- Yeah, that's right.
A technician is a commodity, like salt.
Do I care if I have one brand of salt, or another brand?
No, fuck no, they're the same to me.
One dollar, I don't care, they're a commodity.
Someone who has a vision,
someone who has a narrative, a story,
and can walk in and show me why it's right for me?
Price out the door, and I want you.
I want to work with you.
You do not want to be a commodity,
you want to be a visionary.
- You do not wanna be a commodity.
You wanna be the one who has the vision.
Cause that's ultimately what they're buying, right?
They're not buying a finger presser button person.
They're not buying a monkey with a finger.
They're buying someone who's going to bring vision.
If you can not use the English language,
or the French language, or the Spanish language,
or whatever language you're workin' in,
cause I know we've got people
from all over the globe watching right now.
Whatever language you're using
to articulate your vision,
you have to be skilled at that.
- Let me do another thing for your readers.
We have some interview tear downs I recently did.
So we took people- - This is like
value day for us. - Well I wanna (laughs)
(Chase laughing) - Thank you so much.
- I just realized we have all these videos
and I wanna hook 'em up,
so we brought these people in
and they actually did an interview with me.
And I was like, I pretended to be a pretty tough guy.
They gave me their interview,
and then I said, "All right,
"here's how you can take it from 85% to 99%."
I actually showed them the phrases to use,
including how to negotiate their salary.
Let me send some of those to your students as well.
- Can you give us some examples right now,
- Yeah. - Or would that just be-
- No, no, no. - Would it be difficult to-
- Let's do it. - So what we're gonna
say right now is specific wording
to help you increase the value of your work.
Is that right? - That's right.
- And then, we'll share these also
If you go there, we'll give you these videos,
and you can see the before and afters.
It's so awesome.
You have to see them.
For example, there's something
we call a competence trigger,
and it's basically what really competent people do.
For example, I mentioned the bar example.
If I walk in and I'm just looking around like this,
that's a low competence trigger.
It's clear that I'm kind of like a low status guy.
If I walk in like, "Come on, please."
If I walk in and I'm just confident and cool,
I'm having a good time with my buddies,
that's a high competence trigger,
because people with high confidence do that.
It signals everyone else,
like oh, this guy probably know what he's talking about.
Let me give you an example,
when you walk into a job interview
or a prospect interview, a lot of times-
- I should say that I get,
once I'm up for a job,
they will interview several creatives.
There'll be four creative on the,
not necessarily on the phone at one time,
but they'll have calls with two or three people.
You have to turn in an estimate,
which is how much you'd do the job for.
You have to turn in, sometimes, a treatment,
and then they're gonna get on the phone with you.
This happens at the highest end of advertising photography.
You do this.
It's literally like an interview, so,
- Let's talk about, I want to give you
a scenario that happens in job interviews,
and then we can apply it to photography.
In job interviews, one thing that they'll try to do
is they'll try to say,
"Okay, what's your rate,"
or "What's your expectation of salary?"
Now, what a low-quality person will do is they'll be like,
"Uh, well, I made 35,000 at my last job
and I'm hoping to make 37."
What they already thought is,
this is a low status performer,
and I'm gonna basically give him 36, and we're done.
Even though they have a budget for 60.
You just effed yourself.
On the other hand, a high status performer goes like this,
they go, "Oh you know what?
"We can discuss salary later,
"I'm more than happy to discuss it.
"Right now, I just wanna see if
"it's a good fit for both of us."
What are doing there?
We're deferring salary until later,
and right now, we're just seeing
if it's a good fit for both of us.
What's the key there?
It's not just you deciding if you want to work with me,
I'm actually deciding if I want to work with you.
It's a back and forth.
Let's try to apply that to photography now.
When you walk- - I already did it in my head,
but I'm sure you should actually do it,
cause it's what goes on in the high level
communication conversations that you're talking about.
Walk us through it, go ahead.
- The meta message is so important.
When you walk into a room,
you are not walking in as a desperate beggar,
even if you really want this client.
Counterintuitively, if you really want this client,
you want to explain to them that you have many options.
Not in a sort of derogatory- - Not at all,
yeah, it's very important.
This is a subtle hit here.
- You have to just be confident
that you're good enough that
you will get other clients.
There are other people knockin' on the door,
even if you haven't heard them knock yet.
You walk in, and in language and the way you communicate,
you're saying, "Let's just see if it's a good fit right now.
"We can deal with the details later,
"but right now, I just want to see
"if it's a good fit for both of us."
Why, because you are selecting them
as much as they're selecting you.
It's funny, when I say this,
people, either they're like,
"Yeah, yeah, yeah,"
or they're like,
"Ramit, that doesn't work until
"you're making 25,000 dollars a sale or whatever."
Well, it does.
Your message starts with the way you communicate,
even if you don't have other options,
you want to let them know that
you are a discerning photographer.
You're not just a desperate photographer,
you're actually discerning.
When you do that, they actually like you more.
- The first job, the first rate
that I was ever hired for to shoot new material
was thousands of dollars for a day.
I did that before I'd ever shot editorially at all.
This is like a total confession here,
on the old internet- - Love it.
- It was exactly that.
I had decided I wasn't gonna take a shit job
just to get a job.
At that point, I was waiting tables.
I was doing work that needed
to be done to pay the bills.
On one side, this is the transition
from nine to five,
but even my very first commission
was more than I had made the previous year.
It was several days at several thousand dollars a day,
and I basically just used exactly that technique
without knowing what it was called
or what the hell I was doing.
But, and it was very, very effective,
and the thing is, is that I actually meant it.
- Right, and they can tell.
People are pretty sophisticated at those levels.
- Saying these words and meaning what you say
are different things.
- Another thing that I wanna recommend
that your viewers and everybody here do is build a pipeline.
Too often, we get this thing, one-itus.
When it comes to men and women,
we pick someone and we're obsessed with them.
Like, "Oh I hope they return my text.
"Oh please, they haven't returned it in three days.
"What does it mean?"
Well, when you have one prospect
that you're hoping and counting on,
you can actually turn into,
you get a little desperate.
You walk into the room and you actually telegraph it,
even though you don't say it- - She's here.
- Yeah, they can tell, they can tell.
But what if you had a pipeline
of 5 or 10 or 15 people that you
had coffee meetings with?
And you've been doing all this behind the scenes?
So when you walk in, you actually know.
You know what, if I lose this deal, that's okay.
I have 14 other people that I'm talking to
in the next two weeks.
How do you get those things?
Let's also do another thing, for my staff watching.
Let's give some scripts that we use
to get meetings with people.
I want to include some email scripts
that we actually use- - Wow.
- And we tested with thousands of people.
So you send these out and they will
actually get you meetings.
Coffee meetings, where you can actually
basically get to know people.
Another thing we'll put in the vault
for your Chase Jarvis- - Screw chasejarvis.com/blog
it's all about iwillteachyoutoberich.com/chase.
- We'll put those email scripts up later today, tomorrow.
Gonna hook your readers up.
- Beautiful, God.
I like the idea, though, that you have to believe,
that you have to have conviction.
If you lose the one-itus,
and you have a lot of prospects in the pipeline,
that should give you confidence necessary
to act and behave the way that I think
is gonna send the right mojo.
Another great question came in.
From Iris Eban, says,
"Chase, describe your first gig
"you landed as a photographer
"and pitch you absolutely bombed at.
"What did you learn from each?"
The first gig that I got
probably not at liberty to talk about,
there's just so many contractual things
about who it was, but it was a large,
billion plus dollar company
and it is something I had done
exactly what you're talking about.
Which is develop a relationship with them over time,
through finding out who the decision-makers are,
doing the homework, sitting down and having coffee.
I made it known that I was a photographer
to this person through a set of numbers of,
I think, unique correspondence via email
or sending a cool thing.
Equivalent of a portfolio,
but it was a cool package.
When I was able to get a meeting,
there was an element of timing that I wasn't aware of
that worked really good,
and that's where being prepared,
and where luck is.
Being prepared at the right time.
Fell into my lap.
And when the negotiations,
I didn't have an agent at the time.
I didn't have a producer, I didn't have anything.
It was just me, so I was the one
doing the negotiation.
We went away and I went home,
and I read a lot about negotiation.
Then we came back to the table,
and used a lot of these techniques.
I decided that coming in at a very, very low rate,
I've never seen a photographer who came in at a low rate
suddenly get paid a high rate.
You will get sold the idea that
this is how much money I have right now.
If you just come in and do this,
I will, you know, you'll get more later.
That's not what happens, because if you come in
at 1000 dollars, when they get 50,000 dollars,
do you think they're gonna go,
"My 1,000 dollar person
"is gonna be a great 50,000 dollar photographer."
I didn't want that happen to me,
so I went in as a high priced option.
I actually didn't believe that I was going to get the job,
because I was gonna be too high priced.
The irony is that when they said,
"Okay, that sounds good.
"We'll send you a PO and you can send us the contract."
I just, in my head, went,
"Oh shit, I shoulda asked for twice as much."
That, in and of itself, is a whole, another conversation.
Do you want to be the
"Ah, boy, what I see here is so great.