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Practice English Speaking&Listening with: 2017 Personality 10: Humanism & Phenomenology: Carl Rogers

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All right.


We're going to leap out of the psycoanalytic



and start talking about a form of

approach to personality and its transformations

that's predicated on

a different...

a set of different philosophical assumptions.'s a bit tricky to navigate this because...

it requires the adoption of a different frame

of mind and, of course,

that's the case with all the theorists that we're going to be



Phenomenology probably had its most



in the philosophy of

Martin Heidegger.

And Heidegger was actually trying to

reconstruct western philosophy

from the bottom up.

He tought that

we had been pursuing an improper

pathway conceptually really ever since the time of the

Ancient Greeks.

Back around the turn of the century

-- the previous century, that's from the 19th

to the 20th century --

a new form of geometry was invented

and that geometry was predicated on different axioms

than Euclidian geometry. Now,

people had thought for thousand of years that

the world was properly described by Euclidian geometry.

and, you know,

when you employ a system like

Euclidian geometry you have...there's axioms that you have to

accept and they're like the rules of the game and, once you accept

the axioms then you can go ahead and play the game.

But there are other forms of geometry invented the later part of the..

19th century and it turned out that those

forms with different axioms actually described the world

better than the Euclidian forms, sort of like

the transformation from Newton

to Einstein...this was the..

transformation from Euclide to, say,

-- I think I"ve got his name right -- Rie...Riemannn, R, I, E, M,

A, N, N., who developed a new form of geometry and turned out to be

just the geometry that Einstein needed when he was putting his

theories forward. And, the reason I'm teling you that is because

you can think of systems that have different axioms as...

as different tools

Same idea that Piaget was trying to express

when he talked about how children's

cognitive representations underwent

stage transformations so that they were starting to apply

new principles. Not only a new way

of looking at the world but they were

fundamentally retooling their presumptions about how the world operated.

And Heidegger tried to do the same

thing with philosophy. And so...

And it's tricky to figure out exactly what he was talking about

but I'll give it a shot and then, we can move

forward with Rogers


Since the dawn of the scientific world and, likely, before

that, we have tended to believe

that we are subjects in a world of objects.

And that 's obvioulsy a

very useful way to view the world and you can

tell that because, formalizing that in the form of

science, has enabled us to extend

control over the world

in ways that we were not able to before.

Uh...To formulate the idea of

an objective truth has been an extraordinarily useful maneuver

and so, the idea, roughly, is that

everyone's perceptions can be contaminated by

their own biases and their own fantasies, that subjective

biases and fantasies and you can overcome that by

stringently specifying

the conditions under which an observation takes place

-- so that would be an experimental method --

Having multiple people view the consequences

separately, have them detail out what the consequences are

and then look for commonalities across them. And, you think, well,

the commonalities across a set of observations

constitute a description of the objective world.

And that's been insanely powerful.

..uh....crazily powerful. I mean that's not all there is

to the scientific method but

it's a big part of it.


there is an emergent problem with that


It's complicated but one of the emergent problem

with that is...

maybe, a consequence of

stripping the subjectivity out of the world


What science does is..consider

anything subjective as a form of bias or

error in the observation and then, get rid of it and so

what you're left with, when you...

formulate the scientific world, is a world that's stripped of

subjectivity. Now, the problem with that

is that you're a subject and so, when you strip

the world of its subjectivity, that sort of leaves you

isolated, like an isolated being

with no necessary connections to

objective reality, in the midst of a set of

impersonal facts.

And, that seems to have psychological consequences

and the psychological consequences

are that, well, for example,

I think it's easier to develop a nihilistic sense

of being, for example, if you believe that the

world is nothing but objects and that you're,...

fundamentally, an object among many

and not a particularly important one, at that.

So...there are psychological

consequences to adopting the

scientific worldview.

Prior to the emergence of the

scientific worldview, people were more embedded in what

you might think about as a mythological landscape, you know, where

every element of being had its place in something that

approximated a master plan or, at least, a meaningful plan.

And so...the idea of ...

the meaningfulness of life was not necessarily

such a pressing intellectual concern.

And then...

well, and so, we don't know the full extent of that

...I mean...

I've talked to you a little bit about Nietzsche's

idea that's expressed at the end of the 19th century about

the death of God and his prognostication that

the collapse of...

classic systems of meaning

open up people to posession by

nihilism and also by potentially totalitarian

political systems and that seems to have been what happened

Now, Heidegger was very concerned about that,

among other things. And so, he decided to


reality from the bottom up.

And so, what he did was generate an alternative set

of axioms. He said something like "what if we


to make reality everything that we

experience? Forget about the subject/object divide.

And...One of the other problems with

the subject/object divide

for example, is accounting for consciousness, right? because

it's a problem that science really hasn't got any distance with

at all, as far as I can tell. I mean, people have been trying to crack

the secret of counsciousness, obviously, for a very long time

but they've been trying to do it formally

and using scientific methods, at least for the last

50 years and my sense of that is that they've

got absolutely nowhere.

Maybe, that's a bit unfair. We're better at

representing how conscious experiences

manifest themselves in the brain but we're

but we're certainly no better at understanding

how it is that we experience things. And that's the problem of


That's how the philosophers describe it. And qualia is

the quality of your experience, like the fact that pain,

for example...A pain you feel

is by no means identical, at least, as far as your concerned,

to some pattern of neurological activity, right?

It's pain. It seems to be a fundamental

reality of some... In fact, I think pain is THE fundamental

reality. I think it's the only thing that people will never



So, there's these aspects of your

existence that are subjective, like your experience of

colour and your experience of beauty and just your experience

of things or, maybe, just your experience.

Your eperience plays an

indeterminate role

in the structure of being itself. 'Cause you might ask, well,

what would there be if there was nothing conscious?

and you could say, well...

what would there be if there was nothing conscious of being?

Well, it's a tricky question, because

it depends on your a priori

axioms's not obvious what

there would be in the absence of a conscious oberver.

There wouldn't obviously be any

duration between things. It would be very difficult to

specify things in terms of size. There wouldn't be

any of the qualities that we experience...

...that we experience our being is having 'cause

colour doesn't seem to be an intrinsic part of the world,

smell doesn't seem to be an intrinsic part of the world.

It's very difficult. The more you think about it, you'd find

the more difficut it is to determine exactly what there would

be if there was no one to observe it.

And...that's not the tree-in-the-forest idea, precisely

It's not so much if a tree falls in the forest

and there's no one to hear it, it doesn't make a sound

'cause that's more a matter of the definition of sound than anything else.

This is more, like, if there's a tree in the forest and there isn't anyone,

is there a tree ? And that's a

whole different question. Anyways, so, what Heidegger did,

partly because he was not pleased, I suppose,

with the metaphysical

consequences of the scientific worldview,

and also, perhaps, because he wasn't very

happy about our ability to account for consciousness,

he decided to see what would happen if he played

a different kind of game. And

you can do that in an intellectual discussion, you know, you can say, well,

here's a set of axioms out of which a system

will emerge, like, here's a set of rules out of which a game

would emerge. Same idea.

What if we start with a different set of rules? Let's see

what we can do if we do that. You kind of do that when you play one video game

rather than another. You know, there're little worlds

that pop out. There's a different underlining structure.

And then, you can go inside that world and experiment with it and

see what comes out of it.

So Heidegger decided to say "OK, what we're gonna do instead

is we're going to assume that everything we experience is real.

We're going to make our field of experience itself


And...So that would mean, from Heidegger's point of view,


everything about

the being that manifests itself to you is to be regarded as

equallly real. So, then, you think, well, that makes pain

a fundamental reality. That makes anxiety a fundamental reality.

It makes beauty and colour fundamental

realities. They're not self-evidently

reducible to anything else, which they would be...

...which they are in a scientific...from a scientific

perspective because you have to think about them as

manifestations of some more fundamental underlying

material reality. And I guess that's another problem with the

subject/object model and the material


When you aggregate atoms, when you

arrange them in certain forms.

When they manifest themselves as certain molecules and then

in more complex structures, they seem to take on all sorts

of qualities that you couldn't predict if you just knew about


subatomic particles and the atoms themselves and so, of course, the...

those are called emerging properties and you say, well, you can

observe hydrogen and you can observe oxygen but

that doesn't make it self-evident

for you to be able to predict the properties of water. And, of course,

that's a more simpler problem, all things considered,

than the problem of figuring YOU out. You're this

crazily complex aggregate of these hypothetical...

hypothetically simple entities but

it isn't obvious how

their elemental properties can combine

to produce YOU. It's not obvious at all.

It's certainly not obious how a material that's supposed to be

dead matter, so to speak, can

manifest consciousness,

no matter how complexly it's arranged.


The phenomenologists,

Heidegger leading them, were...

attempted to produce a philosophical model of


And...We'll talk more specifically about the phenomenologists

after we're done with Rogers, but he is...

he fits in that




One of the things that I've thought...

-- This is a bit of a tangent but I'll move back

to the model afterwards. --

See, I really like the psychoanalysts.

And I like the idea that you have a psyche that's inside

of you and that is structured, in part

consciously and in part uncounsciously.

There's something about that that's really cool and I've learned a lot

from the psychoanalysts. But, you know, there is a funny

conesquence of thinking the way they think -- and you do

think the way they think, even if you don't know it --

like we tend to think that a lot of us is inside our head,

you know. That's the psyche model basically.

But, the more I've practised as a clinical psychologist

the less I've actually been convinced that that's true

So, I could say, well...Let's say I want to know about

your personality. We think, well, I wanna now

you. I wanna know about your subjectivity and I want to know

what's inside of you.

But that is not exactly what you do want to know if you're doing clinical

work, say, with someone. You wanna know

do they have any friends?

That's really important. Because, if you're miserable

and anxious and badly placed in life

and misbehaving,

one of the reasons that all of that can occur is 'cause

you don't have any friends, you don't know anyone. And that's not something that's

inside you.

It's you, localized

in a broader sphere. And then, you might say, well, do you

have a job?

And...Well, let's talk about the job. Do you actually make enough

money with your job? Is it satisfying for

you in any way? Are you bullied all the time when you're at work?

Does it provoke anxiety? Is it a carrier that allows

you to go somewhere? Are you overworked?

Or...But let's start with just the first question.

Do you have a job? Well, if the answer to that is "no",

you have a serious problem and that would enough

might be to depress you and make you anxious and

hopeless and nihilistic and all of those things. And, you could say, well,

you're not reacting very well to not having a job but

that's kind of a foolish objection, even though some of

it might be true. One problem is that you're not reacting very

well to not having a job but another problem is that you don't have a

job and that, actually, constitutes the problem,

right? You don't get to eat, you don't have a place to live.

Those aren't psychological problems precisely, even

though a psychological probem could make it worse.

Well, are you as educated as you should be?

That's another question. How do you handle drugs and alcohol?

Are they taking you down a bad pathway? Know?


What about intimate relationships ? Do you have one?

Do you have a plan for one? Or is that a never ending series of

catastrophes or something that you avoid completely?

That's a big problem! And, maybe, people don't...

aren't attracted to you for one reason or another and.... You can think about that as

a psychological problem's an interpersonal


And the degree to which that's a psychological problem is...

is certainly unspecified when

you first begin to talk to somebody. What about your family? Do you have a family?

'Cause' it's hard to be in the world all by yourself. That's for sure!

It makes things a lot more stressful...even though having a family

can also be extraordinarily know..

Do you have plans to have children? How are you doing with your parents?

Do you get along with your siblings? You know, all of

that, all of that, to me, is more

fundamental and it's outside of you. Those are elements of your experience.

More broadly...conceptualized...

more than they are objects of your psychology

or of your internal experience. You know, it's sort of like

Well, a person is a creature that exists

at multiple levels of analysis.

Right? Something might go wrong with you at a

cellular level. So, maybe, you're born with a genetic abnormality.

So, something's wrong with you molecularly.

Or you have something wrong with a major organ.

Or, maybe, there's something wrong with you psycologically. Or, maybe,

you're in a pathological family. Or, maybe, you're stuck

in a pathological social system. And...

figuring out why you're suffering

means going up and down those different levels trying

to specify the appropriate level

for analysis and also the appropriate level for intervention.

And, for me, as I said, even though I'm a great admirer

of the psychoanalysts and I do

things like dream analysis which I really find

incredibly useful and enlightning, the first, the

fundamental level of analysis is, well, what's your experience structured like...

exactly? And that isn't localized in you.

Now, the behaviourists do that to, because...

-- which is one of the things I really like about the behaviourial approach of psychotherapy.

It's very very concrete and practical. It's like,

they'll say, well,

there're certain things that you need to have in order to live properly

and, maybe, you don't have the skills or the wherewithwall...

wherewithal to accumulate them and we'll break them down

into tiny little pieces and you'll practice. So, for example,

someone who doesn't have any friends and you do a micro-analysis

of skills, say,

and maybe an analysis of the kind of anxiety

that are stopping them from going out and meeting people

and then you address those things practically one by one. You try

to get the person have some friends. You try to figure out how they can

establish an intimate relationship. You see if you could help

them sort out their family. You do what you can about their

employment and...A lot of that's only tangentially related

to -- really, in some sense -- to the structure of their psyche.

But, one of the things you'll see, if you work as a

clinician, or as a counsellor, is that, most of the time, people

come and see you because they have problems, not because they have psychological


And those things are not that easy to distinguish.

You know, it's sort of the psychoanalytic idea, sort of like, well, if you juste got

your act together, everything would work out for you. It's like,


There's some truth in that.


But, you know if you're 55 years old and you've just been

laid off work,

and, maybe, through no fault of your own,

it isn't obvious how much getting your act together

is gonna help you find another job...because...

the actual problem that you're facing may have

relatively little to do with you. And that would especially be the case

if you're,

maybe, on the bottom half of the itelligence distribution,

for example, and isn't

as easy for you just to go out and pick up new

skills at the drop of a know...and that

gets harder as you get older because your IQ actually declines quite

substantially as you get older, the working or the....

the fluid intelligence part, anyways -- exercise

can keep that at bay, by the way, it's the best way to keep that at bay.

So, can think,

from the phenomenological viewpoint, of

your experience as a whole, instead of

you being a subject in an objective world.

And's another way's something that's quite useful.

Jung talked about this

'cause he was moving towards a phenomenological perspective later

in his life. The last book he wrote was called Mysterium Coniunctionis.

He talked about three conjunctions

that needed to take place in order for someone to be

well constituted psychologically. And, you know how

Piaget talked about

learning that you could,

not only follow rules, but that you could make rules for new

games as sort of a highest level of moral development. I would say

Jung extended the Piagetian

moral continuum

up past what Piaget had envisioned. Now, he didn't...

he didn't do that 'cause he wasn't trying to extend Piaget's model. But...

But you can think about it the same way. And it's not easy to

come up with a moral

mode of being, say, that transcends the ability to

make rules for new games. That's damn smart, man, that's...

That's a major home run by Piaget,

as far as I am concerned. But Jung said something like this.

He said, look, when you're going through the process of

psychological integration...

Here's a way of conceptualizing it. He thought about this as...

symbolically, as male-female pairings, because...

as I've tried to point out, the most... one of the most fundamental

categories that our mythological imagination

uses to structure the world is the category

of masculine and feminine. And it moves that around, you know,

it's a fundamental metaphor so you can move that around anywhere.

And so Jung thought well, one of the things that you're trying to do

is to get your thoughts and your emotions


And so, you know, the classic Enlightenment viewpoint,

roughly speaking, is something like,

passion is the enemy of reason.

Right? And so, to the degree that you're rational, it's sort of

a Freudian viewpoint 'cause you've got your emotions under control.

And...there's some truth in that but...not enough truth.

I like the Piagetian idea better, which is that,

no, no, that isn't what happens. What happens is if...

if you're playing the proper game is that, you integrate your

emotions underneath your thinkings, something like that.

So, they're all working in the same direction, you know. So,

for example,

you can make your anxiety work against you or for you.

And, one of the ways...

I made a program, called the Future Authoring Program

that I think helps people do that. 'Cause, one of the things you see when you're

talking to people and they're trying to solve problems is that they're afraid to

face the problem.

And so, then, their anxiety is working against them and you can think about it as a...

as antagonistic to rationality.

But then, I could say, well, what if you think for a while about

what your life would be like if you didn't face

this problem?

Because, if you think that through, if you have a problem and you

really think through what the consequences are

gonna be in two to three years of not facing it, then

you're gonna get more afraid of not facing it than facing it.

And that's great because then, your anxiety, instead of

standing in front of you...instead of...

you having a dragon that's guarding the path in front of you, you

have one chasing you down the path from behind. That's

a lot more useful.

And so...

you know, that's just a...

a minimal example of the utility of getting your emotions

and your...

and your thoughts aligned the same way. The same

thing happens with the aggression.

You know...One of the most common reasons that people come and

seek psychotherapy, really, is because they're too agreeable.

But...what that means is they're not assertive enough. They haven't

integrated their capacity for aggression. And so, other people can push them around.

And...and they're very conflict avoidant.

And...and so, the consequences of that across time

is that you don't stand up for yourself well enough

and you get taken advantage of and that spirals

badly downwards. And so, partly what you do when you're

doing assertiveness training with people

is you find out what they're angry about...and...

They're usuallly angry, if they're not assertive enough,

because other people are taking advantage of them or, you could say, because they're not

putting their own...

necessities forward

with enough force. It's hard to distinguish between those two things.

But, anyways, you...

get them to talk about what they're angry about,

that often makes them cry, often many times,

and then, you get them to kind of envision what they would want

to have instead, which they're often afraid to do

because people are afraid to think about what they want

because that makes it more clear when they're not getting it

and that's painful, right? Or, maybe, they're afraid of hoping

so they won't specify a clear aim. But, anyways, you get them to

think about what they might want instead. You get them

to think about the cost of not pursuing that

and then, you help them develop strategies for integrating

their aggression and... with their thinking,

so they can come up with a plan to

approach the world in a more confident way. So, for example,

someone might come to me and say "I'm being bullied badly at work".

And so, then, I'll say "well, what are your options?

You have to put up with it? Well,

we'll figure that out cause maybe you do, maybe you don't have options.

But here's how to find out. Get your damn CV together,

so it's pristine, right? It's ready to go.

Get over your fear of a new interview, because

people are generally afraid of that. Get over your fear of applying

for a new job. Start thinking about what it would mean to have

a different job. Start thinking about what it would mean to have

a better job, even. Cause, maybe, your fear

is just making you stuck here but I can tell you one thing :

if someone's picking on you at work and you don't have options,

you lose."

So you get the person to start building a strategy. It's like, "OK,

if you're gonna tell this person to stop,

you have to know how to make them stop

and the one thing you need for sure is an option,

and, if you can't...if you don't have an option

then, maybe, we start thinking about the fact that you need some more

training or something like that. Because you cannot negotiate

if you don't have any power.

So...because while....especially if you're dealing with someone

who's really out to get you or really disagreeable,

If you don't have a leg to stand on, they'll just push you over and, maybe, they'll

jump on you too because that's what they're like and enjoy anyways, so...

It's no joke.


You put your options behind you and then you

start to think about strategy." So I tell people "Look,

if you're being harassed at work, you document it every time

it happens. You write it down. So you've got like twenty

stories about it and it's fully documented. And then,

you go confront the person at some point with, at least,

3 pieces of evidence. And you have some

sense about what you tell them about what will happen if they don't stop.

So you have to figure out : well, they don't stop?

What are you gonna do about it? Leave? Not if you

can't leave. So, you have to be able to

-- what is it? -- wield a big stick and speak softly.

But, you see, that way...that's how you take your

aggression, which is an absolute necessary

part of your psyche and manifest it up into

a sophisticated means of dealing with the world.

You don't just suppress it and say "well, I should be able to put up with it"

or "I wish I wasn't so angry" or's like...forget that!


All that'll happen is your blood pressure will stay high and you'll die of a heart

attack. Because anger, for example, is a very toxic emotion.

And it does cause heart damage over time. It's the only

emotion that we really know that's been linked to things like

cardiovascular risk. And anger is toxic because

it's like, you're driving a car, you're stepping on the gas

and pushing on the brake at the same time. Because

anger tells you to run away and to attack the same time, cause you don't know what's gonna happen. And so, it

really amps up the physiological

demand on your body. And so, if you...

-- including your heart and your musculature -- so, if you stay like that for

like 10 years, you're gonna age

20 years.

And that's a bad plan.


So, you know, you take your

underground emotions and you integrate them into a sophisticated



Jung said, so

"FIrst of all you unite your mind,

your thinking, let's say, with your emotions. So that makes one

thing, instead of two fighting things."

OK. That's a good one. And then, the next conjunction

he talked about was

"It isn'tenough to unite your mind

and your emotions". And he tought about that as male/female

pairing, symbolically. That's how

it would manifest itself sometimes in dreams. So you

take the masculine element and the feminine element,

the thinking and the emotion, unite

those and that makes you more like one thing. OK and now,

all of a sudden, that's represented as symbolicaly male, that one thing.

And it unites with something else that's now represented

symbolically femin...female. That's the body.

So you take the mind/emotion integration

and integrate that in your body. So what'd that be?

You act it out!

Instead of just thinking.

So, there's this philosophical idea called a...

-- now I'm gonna forget what it's called -- It's a

contradiction in action! There's actually a technical term for it.

But that's when you think and believe something but you don't act it out.

And so, that means there's a dissociation in you somehow

between your abstract representations and

what you manifest in action. Wel that's

another form of discontinuity that isn't doing you any good.

You know, the driver is going one way and the car is going the

other. And you won't even be able to understand yourself, if you do that.

But, even more, you're not putting your principles into practice.

So, you're dissociated. Your being is dissociated. So...

Once you get your mind and your emotions working together, then

the next thing to do is to act that out consistenly.

That was the second conjunction, as far as Jung was concerned, and then

the third one was -- this is the tough one, and

this is the one that's related to phenomenology --

you erase the distinction between yourself and the world.


That's a tough one.

So, imagine you're dealing with someone who's hoarding.

Now, people who are hoarding are often older or

neurologically damaged or they have obsessive compulsive disorder.

But then, you walk into their house and there's like ten

thousands things in their house. There's...there's...there's

There's, maybe, a hundred boxes. And you open up a box and, in the box, there's some

pens and some old passports and some

checks and... there's collections of silver dollars and

some hypodermic needles and some dust and...

you know, a dead mouse and...and...

there's boxes and boxes and boxes. It's like

that in the house. It's absolute chaos in there.

Absolute chaos. Not order...chaos.

And then, you think, is that their house or is that

their being? Is that their mind? And the answer is :

there's no difference. There's no difference.

So, you know, I could say, well, if you want to organize your

psyche, you could start by organizing your room...if that

would be easier, cause, maybe, you're a more

concrete person and you need something concrete to do. go clean up under your bed and you

make your bed and you organize the papers on your desk and you think, well...

Just exactly what are you organizing? Are you

organizing the objective world or are you objecting your field...

are you organizing your field of being,

like your field of total experience?

And Jung believed that...and I think

there's a Buddhist doctrine that's sort of nested in there,

that, at the highest level of psychological integrration, there's

no difference between you and what your experience.

Now, you think, well,

I can't control everything I experience. But that's no objection

because you can't control yourself anyway, so the mere fact

that you can't extend control over everything

you experience is no argument against the

idea that you should still treat that as an extension of yourself.

Well, let's say that you have a longstanding

feud with your brother. Well...

Is that a psychological problem? Is that him? Is it a

problem in the objective world or is it a problem in your field

of being? And it's very useful to think

that way because you might ask what could you do to

improve yourself? Well, let's step

one step backwards. The first question might be why should you even bother

improving yourself?

And I think the answer to that is something like : so you don't

suffer any more stupidly than you have to.

And, maybe, so others don't have to either. It's something like that.

You know, like, there's a real injunction at the bottom of it. It's not some

casual self-help doctrine, it's that if you don't

organize yourself properly, you'll pay for

it. And in a big way. And so will the people around you. Now...

And, you could say, well, I don't care about that but that's actually not

true. You actually do care about that. Because, if you're in pain,

you will care about it. And so, you do care

about it. Even if it's just that negative way, you know.

It's very rare that you can find someone

who's in excruciating pain who would ever say

well, it would be no better if I was out of this.

This sort of pain is one of those things that brings

the idea that it would be better if it didn't exist

along with it. It's incontrovertible.

So...You get your act together so that there

isn't any more stupid pain around you than necessary.

So then, the question might be: well, how would you go about getting

your act together? And the answer to that

-- and this is a phenomenological idea too -- it's something like:

look around for something that bothers you

and see if you can fix it.

So...Now, you think, well

let's say you go into a

-- you can do this in a room. It's quite fun to do it just when

you're sitting in a room, like, a room...maybe, your bedroom, you can sit there

and then just sort of meditate on it, think, OK, if I wanted to

spend 10 minutes making this room better,

what would I have to do? And you have to ask yourself that,

right? It's not a command, it's like a genuine question. And things

will pop out in the room that, you know,'s a

stack of papers over there that's kind of bugging you and you know that, maybe,

a little order there would be a good thing and, you know you haven't...

There's some rubbish behind your computer monitor that you haven't

attended to for, like, six months and...the room would be slightly better

if it was a little less dusty and the cables weren't all

tangled up the same way and...

like, if you...if you allow

yourself just to consider the

expanse in which you exist at that moment,

there'll be all sorts of things that will pop out in it, that

you could just fix.

And, you know, I might say, well, if you're coming to see me for

psychotherapy, the easiest thing for us to do

first would just be to get you to organize your room.

You think, well, is that psychotherapy? And the answer is, well,

it depends on how you conceive the limits of your


And, I would say, start where you can start.

You know, if something announces itself

to you, which is a strange way of thinking about it,

as in need of repair, that you could repair,

then, hey! fix it! You fix a hundred

things like that, your life will be a lot different.

You know, I often tell people too, "fix the things you

repeat every day. Cause people tend to think of those as trivial.

Right? You get up, you brush your teeth,

you have your breakfast, you know, you have your

routines that you go through everyday. Well, those...those probably

constitute 50% of your life. And

people think "well, they're mundane, I don't need to pay attention to them", it's like

no, no, that's exactly wrong. The things you do every day,

those are the most important things you do.

Hands down. All you have to do is do the arithmetic.

You figure it out right away. So...

A hundred adjustments to your...broader

domain of being and there's a lot less

rubbish and..

there's a lot less rubbish around and a lot fewer traps for you

to step into. And so...

That's in keeping with Jung's idea about

erasing the diss...once you've got your mind and your

emotions together and once you're acting that out, then

you can extend what you're willing to

consider yourself and start fixing up the things

that are part of your broader extent. Now,

sometimes, you don't know how to do that. So, you might say, imagine you're walking down

Bloor Street and there's this guy who's, like, alcoholic

and schizophrenic and he's been on the street for ten years.

He sort of stumbles towards you and, you know, incoherently

mutters something. That's a problem! would be good if you could fix it but

you haven't got a clue about how to fix THAT.

You just walk around that and go find something that you could

fix because, if you muck about in that,

not only is it unlikely that' you'll help that person, it's very

likely that you'll get hurt yourself. So...

you know, just because, while your experiencing

things announce themselves as in need of repair

doesn't mean that it's you, right then and there, that

should repair them. You have to have some humility, you know.

You don't walk up to a helicopter that isn't working and just start

tinkering away with it. You have to stay within

your domain of competence. But, most of the time, when people look

at their lives, you know....

-- It's a very interesting thing to do. I like...I like

the idea of the room because you can do that at the drop of a hat.

You know, go back to where you live and sit down and think "OK,

I'm gonna make this place better for half an hour. What should I


You have to ask.

And...things will just pop up like mad. And it's partly

because your mind is a very strange thing. As soon as you give it an aim,

a genuine aim, it'll

reconfigure the world in keeping with that aim. That's, that's

actually how you see, to begin with. And so, if you

set it a task, espec... -- you have to be genuine about it,

which is why you have to bring your

thoughts and emotions together and then, you have to get them in

your body, so you're acting consistently. You have to

be genuine about the aim - But once you aim, the

world will reconfigure itself around that aim,

which is very strange. And...and... it's...

it''s technically true.

You know, the best example of that

-- you've all seen this video where the

basket ball being tossed back and forth

between members of the white team versus the black

team and, while you're doing that, a gorilla

walks up into the middle of the video and you don't see it. It's like...

-- you know, if you thought about that experiment for about five

years, that would be about the right amount of time to spend thinking about it.

Because, what it shows yo isthat you see what you aim at.

And that, man, if you can get one thing through your

head as a consequence of even being in University,

that would be a good one: you see what you aim at.

And so,

inference you might draw from that is... be careful what

you aimt at!

Right? What you aim at determines the

way the world manifests itself to you. And so, if the world is

manifesting itself in a...

very negative way, one thing to ask

is: are you aiming at the right thing? Now...

you know, I'm not trying to reduce everybody's problems to

an improper aim. People get cut off at the knees for all

sorts of reasons, you know. They get sick, they have accidents,

There's a random element to being, that's for sure. But

-- and so, you don't want to take anything, even that particular

phrase too far. You want to bind it with the fact that

random things do happen to people. But it's still a great thing to

ask.-- OK, so, Rogers was a

phenomenologist. He was interested in...he didn't start

his philosophy from the perspective of

subject versus object or from the idea of psyche,

like, sort of inside you, your mind

with it's layers.

That's not how it looked at it. And so,

let's go through...

(now...) I'll introduce you to Rogers. I think that...

then we'll talk more about him next time. I'm gonna start though,

with something that I learned from him that I think was of

crucial importance. And so, we'll set the stage for the

further discussion with this. And I'm gonna read it to you.

ROGERS : "Assuming a minimal mutual willingness to be in

contact and to receive communications, we may say that

the greater the communicated congruence

of experience,

awareness and behaviour on the part of

one individual, the more the ensuing relationship will involve

a tendency towards reciprocal communication with the same

qualities. Mutually accurate

understanding of the communications, improved psychological adjustments

and functioning in both parties, and mutual

satisfaction in the relationship."

It's quite a mouthful.

What does it mean?

"Assuming a minimal mutual willingness to be in contact

and to receive communications." Okay, we are having a conversation.

I'm deciding I'm going to listen to you.


That's different than how people


communicate, because usually when they communicate,

they're doing something like: Okay

We're going to have a conversation, and I'm going to tell you why I'm right,

and I'll win if you agree

or maybe you're having a conversation where

i don't know what your trying to do, maybe your trying to impress the person

you're talking to, so you're not listening to them at all, you're just thinking about what you're

going to say next. Okay, so that's Not This.

This Is: You might have something to tell me.

And So, I'm going to Listen On the off chance

that you'll tell me something that would really be useful for me to know.

and so, you can think about it as an

extension of the Piagetian...

you know Piaget talked about the fundamental

The fundamentally important element of knowledge being

to describe how knowledge is sought.

The process by which knowledge is generated. Well,

if you agree with me and I find that out,

I know nothing more than I knew before. I just know what I knew before.

And, maybe, I'm happy about that because, you know, it didn't get

challenged. But I'm no smarter than I was before.

But, maybe, you're different than

me and so, while I'm listening to you, you'll tell me something I would...

I don't like. Maybe, it's something I find contemptible...

or difficult, whatever. Maybe you'll'll tell me something

I don't know. And then, I won't be quite as stupid. And then,

maybe, I won't run painfully into quite as many things.

And that's a really useful thing to know, especially if you live

with someone and you're trying to make long-term

peace with them and they're not the same as you.

And their way they look at the world and the facts that they pull out of the world

aren't the same as your facts. And...

even though you're going to be overwhelmed with the

procilvity to demonstrate that you're right,

it is the case that two brains are better than one.

And so, maybe, nine of the ten

things they tell you are dispensable,

or, maybe, even 49 out of 50. But

one thing...all you need to get out of the damn conversations is

one thing you don't know. And one of the things that's very

cool about a good psychotherapeutic

session is that the whole conversation is like that.

All you're doing is trying to...

express the truth of the situation

as clearly as possible. That's it!

And so...

Now, Rodgers' proposition

-- and I'll tell you why he derived it -- was that,

if you have a conversation like that with someone,

it will make both of you better.

It will make both of you psychologically healthier.

So, there's an implicit presupposition that the exchange

of truth is curative. Well, that's

a very cool idea. I mean, it's a very deep idea.

I think it's the most profound idea...

It's the idea upon western civil...

upon which western civilization -- although not

only western civilization -- is actually predicated.

The idea that truth produces health. But for

Rogers, that was the entire purpose of the psychotherapeutic alliance.

You come to see me because you want to be better.

You don't even know what that means, necessarily. Neither do I.

We're gonna figure that out together. But you come and you say

"Look, things are not acceptable to me and

maybe, there's something I could do about that". So

that's the minimal precondition to engage in therapy.

Something's wrong. You're willing to talk about it truthfuly

and you want it to be better. WIthout that, the therapeutic

relationship does not get off the ground.

And so, then, you might ask: well what relationships are therapeutic?

And the answer to that will be: if you have a real relationship,

it's therapeutic.

If it isn't, what you have is not a relationship. God only

knows what you have. You're a slave, they're a tyrant.

You know, you're both butting heads with one another. It's a primate

dominance hierarchy dispute or,

I don't know, you're like two cats in a barrel or two people with their hands around

each other's throats. But what you have is not a

relationship. So...

All right. ROGERS "We may say that the greater the

communicated congruence of experience, awareness and behaviour on the

part of one individual"...PETERSON That's a reference to the same idea

that I was describing, with regards to Jung. so...

Let's say,

you come and talk to me and you want things do go well. Well, I'm gonna

have to more or less be one thing. Because, if I'm all over the


you can't trust any continuity in what I

say. There's

There's no reason for you to believe that I'm capable

of actually telling you...

...I'm capable of expressing anything that's true.

So, the truth is something that emerges as a consequence

of getting yourself lined up...and beating all the...

-- what would you call? --

...all the impurities out of your...out of your...

out of your....

soul, for lack of a better word.

You have to be integrated for that to happen. And you do that, at least in

part, by wanting to tell the truth. ROGERS "...the more the ensuing

relationship wil involve a tendency towards

reciprocal communication with the same qualities...." PETERSON : So, one of

the things -- 'cause I've been quite influenced by Rogers --

One of the things I try to do in my therapeutic sessions is, first of all,

to listen, to really listen. And then,

while I listen, I watch. And while

I'm listening, things will happen in my head.

You know, maybe, I'll get a litte image of something or

I'll get a thought or a question will emerge and I'll just tell the

person what that is. But it's sort of

directionless, you know. It's not like I have a goal

-- except that we're trying to make things better -- I'm on the side

of the person...I'm on the side of the part of the

person that wants things to be better, not worse.

And so, then, those parts of us have a dialogue and

the consequence of that dialogue is that certain things take place.

And then, I'll just tell the person what happened. And it isn't that

I'm right.

That's not the point The point of this is that, they get to have an hour

with someone who actually tells them what they think.

Here's the impact you're having on me.

You know...This is making me angry. This is making me

happy. This is really interesting. This

reminds me of something that you said an hour ago that I don't quite understand.

And the whole...

the whole point is not, for either

person to make the propositon or convince

the other that their position is correct, but merely to

have an exchange of experience

about how things are set up.

And it's extraordinarily useful for people because it's often difficult

for anyone to find anyone to talk to that will actually listen.

And so...another thing that's really strange about this listening

is that, if you really listen to people, they will tell you the weirdest bloody things

so fast you just cannot believe it. So,

if you're having a conversation with someone and it's dull, it's because

you're stupid. That's why. You're not

listening to them properly. Because they're weird. They're like

wombats or albatrosses or rhinoceroses or something,

like, they're strange creatures. And so if you were actually

communicating with them and they were telling you how weird they really are,

it would would be anything but boring.

So.... And you can ask questions, that's a really good

way of listening. But, you know... one of

Rogers' point is that, well, you have to orientate properly in order to listen.

And the orientation has to be:

look, what I want out of this conversation is

that the place we both end up is better than the place we left.

That's it!

That's what I'm after. And, if you're not after that, you gotta think:

why the hell wouldn't you be after that? What could you

possibly be after that would be better than that?

You walk away smarter and more well equipped for

the world than you were before you had the conversation.

And so does the other person. Well, maybe, if you're

bitter and resentful and angry and anxious and, you know,

generally annoyed at the world, then,

that isn't what you want. You want the other person to walk away

worse, and you too, cause you're full of revenge. know...

You'll get what you want, if you do that. So...

ROGERS "We know from our research that such empathic

understanding..." PETERSON: It's already defined, that. I want to hear you,

I want to hear what you have to say, so we can clarify it and move forward.

I want to have your best interest in mind...And mine as well...but...

you know...both at the same time. Your family's too, if we

can manage that. We're after making things better.

ROGERS: "We know from our reserach that such emphatic understanding

-- understanding with a person, not about them -- is such an

effective approach that it can bring about major changes in personality.

Some of you may be feeling that you listen well

to people and that you have never seen such results. The chances are

very great that you have not been listening

in the manner that I have described. Fortunately, I can suggest

a little experiment that you can do to test the quality of our understanding.

the quality of our understanding. The next time you get into an argument

with your wife, or your friend, or a small group of friends, stop

the discussion for a moment and, for an experiment, institute

this rule.

Each person can speak up for himself only

after he has first restated the ideas and feelings

of the previous speaker accurately."

PETERSON: What "accurately" means is they have to

agree with your restatement. Now, that's an annoying

thing to do! Because, if someone is talking to you and you

disagree with them, the first thing you wanna do is take their argument and make it

the stupidest possible thing out of it that you can

-- that's the straw man -- and then, demolish it.

It's then, you can walk away feeling good about it

and, you know, you primate domins...

dominated them really nicely. So...

But that is not what you do. You say, OK, well, I'm gonna take what you told me,

and, maybe, I'm even gonna make your argument stronger than the one you made.

That's useful if you're dealing with someone that you have to live with.

Because, maybe, they can't bloody well express themselves very well but they

have something to say. So you...make

their argument strong. All right...then...

ROGERS: "You see what this would mean. It would mean that before presenting

your own point of view, it'd be necessary

for you to really achieve the other speaker's frame of reference

-- to understand his thoughts and feelings so well

that you could summarize them for him. Sound simple

doesn't it?

But if you try it, you'll find that it's the most

difficult thing that you've ever done."

PETERSON: OK, good, we'll leave it at that and then, we'll see you on Tuesday.

The Description of 2017 Personality 10: Humanism & Phenomenology: Carl Rogers