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Practice English Speaking&Listening with: Jocko Podcast 77 with Roger Hayden: War Stories. Mental Toughness and Clever Tactics

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the names and the stories in this episode have been omitted to protect the

privacy of the individuals involved this is Jocko podcast number 77 with

echo Charles and me Jocko Willing good evening echo good evening and tonight we

welcome back to the show retired Chief Warrant Officer Rodger

Hayden and if you don't know who Rodger Hayden is then just stop right now and

go back to episode 37 of this podcast and you can listen to Roger came on for

a short period time we had some time constraints on the first time that Roger

came on but he's one of the men on which the reputation of the SEAL Teams is

built started off as a frogman member of the underwater demolition teams and

deployed to Vietnam with underwater demolition team 12 and then came back

and checked into SEAL team one where he deployed again two times to Vietnam and

then spent 30 years in the SEAL Teams and then as a civilian has another how

many years 20 in other so we're just looking to the solid 50 years of service

to Naval Special Warfare the SEAL Teams so like I said Rogers been on before now

one real quick story to kind of give a little background as to Rogers attitude

about things and so I was on and I told this part of the story last time we were

on a ship we were we were having our our operation already this exercise was

being graded called an o re and the person that's grating it is Roger Aden

sir you know the young seal platoons were getting graded and making sure that

we know what we're doing and at this point Roger is a Warrant Officer so he's

a commissioned officer and he's out on the ship with us going you know watching

how we're planning and seeing how we're preparing our gear and making sure that

we're we know what we're doing like I said and as a commissioned officer

you're supposed to be eating in what's called the ward room with the rest of

the officers so you know the military has officers and they have enlisted guys

and the officers are so the managers and the enlisted guys are

the workers and as an officer on a ship on a navy ship you have something called

a ward room which is nice to have it's just a little it's a smell you add a

little level up it's pretty darn nice in the ward room I've eaten in both the

ward room and on the mess decks and the ward room you know you have real civil

and there's actually people serving you so the ward room is kind of nice well

Roger as a Warrant Officer is you know permitted or authorized or supposed to

eat with the rest of the officers was supposed to go get that good treatment

and Roger didn't want to eat with the officers he wanted to eat with the chief

so then the middle management of the of the Navy is the chief the chief petty

officers and there's Chiefs senior Chiefs and master chiefs and they're

like the backbone of the Navy they have the tactical knowledge and the SEAL

Teams and so Roger instead of wanting is that our eating with the officers he

wanted to eat with the Chiefs and before he was a Warrant Officer what

were you a senior chief before you were worn off certainly masters off Master

Chief so he was a hot idea Master Chief before he became a Warrant Officer and

so he started eating the Chiefs mess with all the Chiefs well some of the

Chiefs on the ship they didn't like having an officer you know I don't want

this officer here this is our territory right this is our area again you know we

can't why is this officer coming in here and so my platoon chief at the time was

actually friends with with Roger but you know he was the guy that was getting had

really building relationships for the Chiefs on the ship and all that stuff

and so they knew him and they and he was a senior chief and they pulled him aside

they said hey you know hey senior chief you know it's kind of we got this

warrant officers to see why is he coming in he's not shouldn't be coming in here

he's nice Cody needs Cody up the ward room with the rest of the officers this

is the Chiefs mess he doesn't belong in here and so my chief was like listening

to him oh okay oh I'm not sure why you feel that way but this goes on for a

couple days and finally my platoon chief and I wasn't there for this but I got

told the story and my platoon chief was a guy from this

Souths and he had a great accent and talked in a very distinct manner and so

so they get into much I think it was lunch they roll into the the Chiefs mess

for luncheon Warrant Officer Hayden comes in and he's standing in there and

he's getting a couple looks from people and finally my platoon chief stands up

and says uh can I ask everyone in here a question real quick and they go okay you

know what what he says well this here is Warrant Officer Roger Hayden member of

the underwater demolition teams member of the SEAL team served three tours in

Vietnam highly decorated including a Purple Heart for being wounded and he

was a master chief before he got commissioned and he wants to eat with us

in the Chiefs mess does anyone here have a problem with that and of course no one

did nothing but crickets and so Roger Hayden eats with Roger Hayden want to

hit you so Roger welcome to show once again thanks for

coming back and the last time we were time constraint and you said you've come

back so here you are appreciate you coming back on it's my pleasure thank

you and like I said anybody that wants to get the full background you know

listen to podcast number thirty-seven and he talks a little bit about how you

grew up but I had a question when you joined so you came in and your dad was

UDT which is awesome and then when you joined the Navy

in 1965 did you know you were going to Vietnam was the war big enough yet cuz

we had this guy on last time captain Charlie plumb and he went to the Naval

Academy and he he said he graduated from the Naval Academy I think in 1965 as

well but he said he never heard he never heard the word Vietnam one time while he

was going to Naval Academy it wasn't until he graduated that the war

escalated and all of a sudden they realized what he was going through

flight training that yeah you're going to Vietnam but when you joined in 65 did

you know I mean were you thinking yeah I'm definitely gonna go to war and go to

Vietnam yeah putting much because I'd have been drafted in

the army and I knew the army is going to Vietnam so I figured I knew I wanted to

go on the Navy and into utt my dad never talked about it much but uh you know

when I was a younger I watched the movies of the Marines attacking and

beachheads and getting mowed down you know Rangers taking heavies and stuff

and then I saw the bridge of the River Kwai and the Guns of Navarone

and I figured yeah if you're going to fight if I can outfit you want to find

my sneak around a little bit more so yeah I did I did fact as soon as I got

in to the Navy I I took the screening test and all that stuff and you know

before I even went to know right after when I was at radium in school I was a

rating winner so do it that was a twenty two week long school and that's what I

did is I work and get all that stuff and did the screen test and you know they

wanted me to go to rota or some other Navy insulation because I didn't do too

bad in Radium school I wasn't the number one guy but and I went now I'm going to

go to you TT and so and if you went to what up that you yeah they we our class

our class was a certain up for about six months so they stuck me on the USS Paul

Revere 32nd Street waiting for you GT training and I was a designated seaman

back in the day a designated seaman was pretty good wasn't like it is now and I

figured I'd working the Radio Shack or something like that well as soon as they

checked the board they put me mess cook and I was down accelerating when I went

down there there were two other guys that were waiting for a 22 that were in

the scullery so we sat there and did that for six months and got off the ship

and went next door across the bay there to training yeah that's something the

Navy it's if you're a new guy everyone talks about how new guys get treated

wherever you are as a military but in the Navy when you go to show up to a

ship you doesn't matter you have to work in the in the scullery which is washing

dishes what is it a 90 day stint you got to do in the out pretty

yeah pretty much ninety days uh and and you only don't do that

if you're an e4 debuff right and we did I did employment where we had a guy that

was Annie SEO but he's an e3 and you know he was saying hey wait how am I

going to get out of this you know doing the skullery duty and we're like you're

not that's the rules you know you're gonna go do it you can do it I was a

senior Keith two of us a guy named real good friend of mine

we couldn't get a flight back so they put us on an Arg to float back here to

San Diego and we kept all of our guys from then the nest cook Network seaman

that's where he just went we got stuff to do we're doing training and they

haven't got time to do that oh we kept them out of course I was a senior Chiefs

in and so so we had a little pull yeah plus they cover the boat he really liked

us a lot and you know they M the CMC and he was a PBR Vietnam guys oh really long

really well yeah yeah well and actually this kid ended up making e4 luckily

before we went on deployments care about that but I really feel did bringing the

supplies and stuff like that you know because it was a good workout yeah yeah

I forget what they call that unwrapped unwrapped now we did that do ya we're

actually when I was on my first deployment I deployed to Guam and you

know we just get whatever he wanted I was 21 years old it was completely

insane you got all this per diem money you felt like the richest you will never

mind felt like you were the richest guy you ever met I mean you never made any

money when you're in 16 17 years old you get in the SEAL Teams you're getting all

this money and then they go overseas and they're giving you per diem and so

you're the richest dude in the world you have very limited responsibilities

because you're a new guy in a seal platoon so what do you do just get crazy

and get after it and you know you're doing whatever you want and then my next

deployment was on a ship and we pull into the first port and they say you

know he fallen below Liberty expires at 10 o'clock and I was

like oh yeah whatever you know I'm a seal they're like no actually you'll be

back on the ship at 10 o'clock and there was no way around it you know what there

was ways around it we found ways around you know the way around it was

I put my PT gear in a backpack and then go off the ship

to go out whatever and then hang out all night until five o'clock in the morning

and I put my PT gear back on I grunt get it so I going to walk up the bow

whatever I was coming back again I was just out for a run

got my rock on so there was ways sure there's ways to make it happen

so speaking of guys from from when you were going through training was there

guys when you're going through buds training was there Korea Korean vet you

TT guys in there when world war two was it just Vietnam guys of early anand our

instructors yeah older World War two guys it was one guy named Tom Demming

Tom great big tall guy who cut

and and he was a world war two unique let me tell you the story on that guy so

we're out uh we just get to thank committee the last part of the training

you know third phase you know so we're all lined up there we just got off we

went out there on an LCU you know with all of our demo enamel and all that

other crap we just mustered out there and this guy comes walking up great big

tall guy rolled what was I in 1918 you don't mean he looked probably like you

do or I do we thought it was an old guy he look I yeah but he looks at us he

starts talking you know he goes goddamnit I'm the I'm your demo

instructor and keeps talking he says that'll brook no bullshit on the ranges

you know we're kind of just looking at him like what the hell he gets himself

worked up a little bit and he goes matter of fact anybody that screws up

would just go out behind the shitter and get it scored away you know and work

still looking he talks a little bit more and gets himself all excited and shit

and he goes matter-of-fact anybody wants a guy behind the shitter right now we'll

go you know and if we just look at welcome to find out later on was in the

82nd airborne and jumped into Norman called

got captured escaped on and on then he was in the Korean War two that was one

of our instructors almost all of them there were in the Korean War you know

pretty much but uh and we had another guy

and on his jacket he wore yadda UDT instructor and the other side was

God you know he was he was a hook-nosed Indian Apache and he was a badass dude

man that's some great guys and now most of the instructors yeah were in summer

Vietnam guys you know like had this one blue eyed guy he was

I can't think his name right now either but he was on vacation was paddling up

north in the Columbia River sup no not that North the East Coast I deny his key

was on an excursion with some other people on his canoe tipped over and he

it was real cold and she had and he was trying to swim a couple in the shorten

shit and just just went out but this guy would run behind you and you of course

we didn't have a lot of hair but what we had to stood up you know and you turn

and look and they were he was just staring at she had these blue eyes you

know I'll think it was naming a minute real good guy though and it there must

have been because blood was pretty regimented now but they must hadn't no

it was it was definitely less regimented when I went through for sure they must

have been completely just like no rules when you went through you know we this

guy during hell week he had what they called

the swimmer line and like to say we're on the base I'd remind you we're in

training in January started 3 January some colder than God you know what he

would do is will he'd have us hook into what we call the flutter board line you

know like you when you do recon as the guys hold on the line you move down the

line and stuff and he'd send us all out and he'll there's about fucked about 60

of us excuse me that's about XD that's what we did send us out and we had to be

in a straight line if we weren't it bring us all back and line us all up

again and we weren't straight so he sent us out again brought us all back in and

we're freezing the guys are almost getting hypothermia because we're not or

just in a ke pocket not you know regular utilities that you were for training

yeah so he sent us out again the third time and like if you're on the bitter

end line your food you then he brought us back in he goes wow goddamn I guess

it still wasn't very you guys still weren't in a straight line and we mean

we're gonna have to send you out again all the way down the line all you heard

was click click click click click click click click we just looked at him

well alright we got other things to do that was it we were done and everybody

had lost a whole class that was so cold if you've always if you don't know

California and you think California's like they watch the old TV show you

think the water's all warm it's not warm it's not one especially in January yes

January 3rd it's not going to be warm and and you were saying you guys were

swimming like crazy going through that because you knew that you're going to

UDT and so you're a frog man that's a to be entering for not seals so we did a

lot more water work and you guys did going to buds because we didn't have the

seal portion when we got that but after we made our deployment came back went

and seal team then you went into CAD razor did you get any land warfare at

all and but oh yeah I loved it it was normalizing yeah basic stuff and little

immediate IEDs but immediate action goes not much it was like our last op that we

had I think I told you this and uh thank you many was we did swimmer Scouts in on

the other side of a rock formation we called birdshit Rock and got the island

they gave us off a 40-pound haversacks and we went from there all the way 23

miles of the island we blew up something walking yeah okay so you humped 23 miles

and swam over the beach yeah and then came back and attacked the camp that was

our last op nein that's a that's a crappy patrol two

dozen tactus yeah I know that that's a no I was small I was thought it was

pretty smart see so I wore a kind of a wetsuit what do you call that the small

one you know like a wetsuit on top and because I you know so I wouldn't freeze

to death come in and actually this was April almost the end of April and it was

still cold out of saying committee you know we swam in and I humped with that

thing on all the way up there and it got sunny and warm

I almost friggin died by the time my back you could peel it off me like this

you know yeah there's no good there's no good way to do it there's like no good

way to handle coming over the beach it's not going to be convenient you're not

going to be comfortable that's one of the things that makes in my opinion

that's one of the things that makes the SEAL team the guys missile team is

really good is that we just have to deal with the water and as soon as you're

deal in the water like you just said there's no easy way to do that it's like

you're going to be there be freezing in the water or gonna be sweating on land

or you're going to be too hot or no I see you're not you're gonna be okay in

the on the on the land it you're just screwed is what I'm saying and not to

mention your weapons your weapons all get your radios all get jacked up your

your weapons all get jacked up your gear gets all jacked up you got sand in your

boots there's no good way to deal with it and on top of that the communications

like you're in the water you can't talk to people you can't there's nobody

radios aren't work and it just everything sucks and so when we were do

off dry it just seems like it's so easy to do and I think that's one big thing

that separates it doesn't separate us but it's one of the things that makes us

good that we have to deal with the water and

we deal with it our whole bottom line is you should never bring a boat to shore

you always swim in yep that's what we do you know just like swimmer Scouts the

whole nine yards yep that's the bottom line was a chief that's pretty hard on

that stuff we never brought the boats ashore yeah you know we we did the same

thing when we were in the article tune we never brought the boats in because

there's a there's a 10 15 maybe 20 percent chance that you're going to flip

the boat you're going to lose a boat something's going to happen to boat and

then you're screwed now you got a boat washing up against

the shore and you got to deal with it it's big no we always it's a big it's a

big target there for sure for sure like an in Desert Storm you know we inserted

those Kuwait ease the officer I won't mention any names but wanted to bring

both the boats in you know and into quate and let the quiddity guys off and

I went nice keep at least if you're going to do that keep one boat back you

if you keep another boat and sure because they can give covering fire you

know yeah and then if they have to any and you know you can be seen I don't

mean if that's a big target you know to me you just don't do that you know know

that that's there's so many things you got to figure out what the water and

when you when you guilt was I mean that's why when we were in Iraq and we

rarely did boat ops we did some in in the river but you just don't either on

footage and everything is so much easier it's crazy it's crazy

the you get so you get done with training saenko two-mile 1967 you get

done with training and you check into UDT 12 and you didn't really know too

much about the same things I guess no one at that time knew much about this

early not much at all and you were saying on that first podcast that we did

that the platoons were really formed up yet you kind of showed up at UDT and

your kids it's it's kind of a loose situation but you do do a workup so once

we start working up and it was regimented you know you knew how to do

but we had a while they had just come back and relieved uvt 11 and just

deployed and then 12 came back and you have a kind of a stand down move about a

month or two oh so we'll show that for ya okay because it's a nine-month

deployment for you TTS so you have a lot of six months work up

and then you have three months for the guys going leave

like that we came I came in just at that time so it was really kind of like we'd

go up and do what they call silver slippers up at Pendleton when the

Marines are doing piteous landings and we'd be the lifeguards and stuff like

that you don't need until we start forming up for the hard work and then

Augusta got pretty good what did you guys do was that when a hardcore about

PT back then oh yeah would you guys do teen pts yep platoons

our team team the whole team yep and what every every everyday was it the

same was it flutter kicks push-ups yeah I'll just

your basic PT in fact I didn't start lifting weights until said I was in

about 15 years maybe 16 17 years because you do Old Course swimming all the PT we

had and everything we were in really good shape you know I mean and you

didn't see a lot of the guys in the gym lifting heavy and stuffs I came on later

on then also which I changed was later on was a chief and senior chief and

stuff and even now not as an LPL we still did platoon PT every morning but

we do it every other day then let the guys go off and do their running to do

their PT of weightlifting and stuff like that no work out well you know you can

change even though I thought PT in the morning first thing is the best to do

yeah especially when we were su V can I have two guys would be throwing up and

shuffling MPT yeah I always liked least at team one when I got the team one

there was that that team PT we did every day and team two is the same thing but

you know I'll tell you once the war started there's a lot less focus on PT

and it just was well I'm saying it's on where you are too chuckle you never to

go for long runs and shit we're in a rock in jail yeah we'd run around

Mason's but did you guys have a my my question is the did you take weights

with you did you have a workout places up yet we deployed and actually once one

team shows up somewhere on deployment but they all bring a bunch of gear yeah

and and there's enough to do it get it done

and then other teams they don't have to bring everything but they'll bring more

stuff and eventually you know whatever compound hearing is pretty nice if you

go to that same calm down yeah and and I was bribe brought mats for for jiu-jitsu

I'd make a little jujitsu area so I could total course so I could still

train and get the boys training and you know what's fighters like you were

talking about its we have some of this stuff stays if you're talking about

walking around in UDT shorts and coral boots and unfortunately nudity shorts I

don't think guys wear I don't think they get issued him anymore but when I got

the team one we absolutely got issued DDT choice and that's work that was our

uniform and we got issued coral booties those old clay coral booties and I

didn't realize you know that's what you guys want I mean let somebody thing yeah

probably been issued for I don't know II went outta town you see guys with coral

advising their Rolex watch and stuff you know to me he can pick out a team kinda

harsh II yeah I was uh I was I looked I looked up Coral booties and I was just

saying if anybody makes them any more they're hard to get their on eBay you

got to buy a pair of ebay you got to be lucky if they have your size I'm going

to go through my gear and see if I still have my coral booties but and then you

did do a legit workup though where you did all your hydro recon oh yeah well

recons like up the coast by Pendleton we drug

this one rocket looking thing in up over these fucking mountains and put it in

Lake and stuff like that and then we swam across the wow did we flip no we

didn't right there at the channel and it goes out and have those old gun

emplacements it wet it with tackles and I had them set up a booby traps and

stuff so we'd go across and work her way up and shit like that always stuff yeah

in UDT it was it wasn't bad it was good training I mean but it wasn't you know

just like a story I told you it was during the 67 68 Ted we're in donk am on

the a scary and that's where who I was was UDT and there were about 17 of us on

there we're doing that dark thing later on getting that a little bit

more but that's when we worked with the 9th inventory and stuff and uh anyway

had a seal platoon in Mito which wasn't too too far away but it was right in the

town why these coasts would have a would have a their place in a town I'd never

know because anytime you left her when any work you know I'm saying that you

can be picked out but anyway so they were almost getting over an but they

were on the tallest building that a57 quarters rifle and stuff anyway sent a

call-out hey we need help number 17 of us you know on the ice

carry EDT guys we wanted to go in and rescue them and save them and our

officer just a great guy lieutenant said now you ain't going anywhere

we're so close you got in there how a Coptic we're not going to go we just

want to join help me out you know people are incarcerated oh yeah you know

they're seals but the NDT guys so anyway so um we didn't do that and I got back

in deployment when the SEAL team went to the Kadri and I know guys those guys by

the way they didn't get overrun no they they brought along they were coming up

the stairways never throwing grenades down that and when stuff like that and

finally the Arve and the u.s. came in and took me go back over it was doing a

67 68 to go bad but anyway so when I got back and I went through Kadri and stuff

I found out you know hey we weren't ready for this we didn't know any

immediate action drills well not a lot not a time if not you know pounded in

your head where we'd automatically think about him you know any urban environment

whatsoever fiance plus we were in urban and that was urban would add our asses

handed to me yeah that was we didn't know we were fighters would have fought

but you know figure those guys in me told the VC and stuff there they had

their shit together that was their talent stuff you know me with a yeah you

know more about the urban stuff than I do because I never fought urban you know

we hit who which is and stuff like that but we never swept through we did one

village one time but it was you know it was good you know I mean

yeah and Zoey when you deploy to with UDT did you guys ride a ship over there

do you fly over there how'd you get to Vietnam we flew over to Subic Bay and

like I said that's where we were at that's like you went to Guam well sue

because our place okay and then they would would fly over to we

had different debts that we had in Vietnam like in Danang Ned camped in

Shaw and from the Nang you'd work up and round Phu Bai wake when creed uncle the

northern part of the area and stuff you know and then we got on the dye chinko

and I don't know if we picked the duchenko up at Subic or not we might

have you know when we did olden Beatrice ons and then the next day I went to was

down in dong town on me and you go back to Subic in-between at all oh yeah oh

really and we'd be there for about a month and or three weeks and so we had

attack we deploy from Subic out to vietnam do operations for a month and go

back three months Oh every month we got three months at a time yeah although

it's a nine month deployment yeah so yeah we my three debts were Danang and

on the dye chinko and then down in downtown when I was in unity that was

three months and each places and first of all the on the last one you thought

talked about doing 130 miles worth of beach mean I was about 120 I think you I

was a lot on at ten mij was three months but you know you were kind of talking

about it like oh you know we were doing this recon but that was you you were

reconning beaches in north vietnam you know south south vietnam and was

there any resistance were you guys in jeopardy of getting rolled up or was it

more of like almost an admin thing or was it somewhere in between oh we we

always had these the Marines or the Arvin which was the South Vietnamese

army they would screen put screens out when we do the beaches to cover us in

case we got hit with anything right because they were nobody knew what was

really on the beaches and stuff but if the Marines are in the area they attend

a patrol and they'd worked the back backyard and stuff as we're doing our

recon the one I've told you I we got hit was

we didn't have any armored army or Marines so we sent two of our guys in

the back to kind of check things out as we're doing a recon and that's what we

got cotton had almost gotten that l-shaped ambush and what happened was as

we were coming down the beach and we had the guys out and I was a good talker

first I was out front with another guy and I had a pair of agency UT keys on

coral booties and my super slate and I was writing The Bachelor information but

so everyone knows what we're talking about when you're going to land people

on beaches or if you're potentially going to land people on beaches you have

to do a reconnaissance of the beach but not just of the beach itself but up the

water and how deep the water is and make sure there's no obstacles in there and

so the people that did this since World War two was the underwater demolition

teams so that's what we're talking about the way you do it is you have a

literally you have a line a big rope it's small it's more like a line than it

is rope but that stretches from the beach from a couple guys on the beach

called the beach party all the way out to a boat a small little rubber boat

well sometimes yeah and then that was an IPS we hooked it to it's about 30 feet

it has knots where you know each pair is going to be holding on to and you mark

take the sounding then you as you went to the next sounding which is 25 yards

down the beach and on the b-side be holding up these markers so that you

could get yourself on them you'd be definitely doing down until you got to

that point again then you take your sound again then you come back and make

a hydrographic chart so there's guys on the beach that are holding for what we

call range markers and they said what is that like 10 yards apart look at one guy

in the front one guy in the back and they're looking at a compass so that

they're making sure that they're lined up so that lines up this whole line so

it's this it's this kind of complicated and it seems like an administrative

thing but you got to do it otherwise you know you get a situation where the

Marines come into land and they hit up like they do yeah like they did in

Tarawa and they you know big they hit a reef and then they dropped the ramps the

guys get out and they didn't know that that reef was only ten feet long it's

two feet deep but now on the other side of the reefster guys going into ten

twelve fifteen feet of water and drowned so that's why you have to actually be

fairly precise or at least as precise as you can be when you're taking these when

you're doing this hydrographic reconnaissance you know you have the

back shore party you know the two guys there I have the officer and a couple

other guys picking up the steaks put mistakes out and that's usually katara

first job you're way out ahead of everybody else taking the bachelor

information so when you come back and do your under graphic chart you know you

can lay it out exactly then you have to do it Leroy I was a photographer I know

all the kids so which I hate it because you had to man make hand draw the maps

your hand drawn that and those those are those charts that you draw you're going

to present those are going to get presented to you know the the Navy and

they're going to use those charts to conduct this landing so like I said they

got to be good got to be good quality yeah anyway so the other two guys are

walking along and we were doing or beach reconnaissance and everything well they

had an l-shaped ambush on us and they had a spider hole back here with a

couple guys that once we got hit and if anybody ran back these guys that holds

them down why are two guys hit those two guys nice spider hole and opened up on

him which made them open up on the sooner so we all leapfrog back down the

beach really great guy i meter charge

everything was perfect we grabbed him to the line the boat IDs took off and you

know 9 or 9 and a half horsepower engine didn't go real fast you know then we had

a Coast Guard Cutter out there they started lobbing in Willie Peter on him

but we didn't know it was them and some of it landed pretty close to us we

thought that was them do we not trying to hit us and we got

out far enough in our PL that we finally got to and got on Appeals uh you know

the boat that the that we inserted off of him stuff and they picked us up in

the guy and was shooting his 50 and stuff but what was really neat was

income these two jets oh and they napalm the whole beach that was that was kind

of cool that's when I told you when I got back to the boat I said screw this

naked warrior shift yeah jockeys are you're in a pair of UDT ZV

coral booties or any that's like what reefs workers a little they're like

they're like Chuck Converse Chuck Taylors yeah a little bit leaner you

have the split no no it was they're like yeah it's like color coral would so you

could walk on Coral yeah yeah get cut with it like hold you down there that

big thing no no they were like they were like they were canvas and they had a

kind of a real thick rubberized bottom on it today yeah they were good and I

had an m79 so I'm shooting that thing as I'm running back and that's the only

weapon you had is it yes all I had yeah that your your slate could draw on and

collect back short semester yeah that was kind of exciting and with that

before you was that was that recon before you work with a 9th Infantry yeah

yeah okay I went from there from the dye Schenkel down to dong Tam and work with

a 9th infantry and the the 9th infantry man so this stuff I was looking about

you know a lot the 9th in securing what they did and so just first of all the

9th infantry is the is the unit that the fictional character

Forest Gump was supposed to be attached to which is why in the movies working by

the water and all that stuff I imagine that's what they that's why they

that the 9th infantry in Vietnam had 10 Medal of Honor awarded to soldiers and 3

sailors so they were working in conjunction very closely with the

brown-water Navy which again to pull a quote from the last time you you were on

Roger you're like saying that job as being brown-water Navy was just vicious

John I wish John and general Westmoreland said that the 9th Infantry

Division and the mobile riverine forces saved the Delta region from falling to

the North Vietnamese during during Tet that could have been I mean I didn't I

wasn't on land with them don't know everything they did remember I was a

second class in and we got we were on the ass the ass carryin been a wall as

reconnaissance guys with the asker indented when they were APD's what's

that amphibious some some kind of an

amphibious ship yeah both homework big ones and troop ships well data troops I

think the a scary was a tube ship I'm not sure it could have been the Benoit -

but they were pretty good-sized ships and they were right at on the who right

at Don cam which was the Dong Tamworth had a big army base and a Navy base and

late my third trip to Vietnam I went back there was a seal and it was a same

same place of the same area so when you how did you guys get linked up with the

9th Infantry well we that's who we're doing the reconnaissance for to see if

they could go up the canals and up the rivers you know and see what the death

was so they could bring the brown water Navy out there that the troop carriers

and stuff like that for the 9th Infantry and they didn't know what the depth of

some of the places they were going to go in so they dropped us off on these we

call them the darts they were like a jet ski right except

you didn't sit up on me laid down on them use your feet to guide them and

they had a 355 degree camera and a fathometer and they would take two of us

up drop us off and we'd come down and do the reconnaissance I mean take soundings

and pictures of gnomes point like a pagoda

or another canal coming in or something you know we'd come back we'd do a chart

and we'd give it to them and that's what they used those charts to go up and do

their impervious landings and if anybody could only go up those down those things

maybe once or twice then you didn't do it again because they'd be waiting for

you so when we weren't doing that which you can only do so many of them and we

started writing with the 9th infantry as their demo guys and and so you would

would you have already seen it because you do the dart mission and then you'd

come back and then they'd come up with their plan and then they'd say okay

we're going to go up that River that you just came down and so you'd be from we

would you be familiar with it now no they took us we went up to four corners

in the places that we'd never been okay that was deep enough for him to go up

and stuff but uh they might have I don't know you know that would have been John

oldish my ot that would have probably been in on the planning when they were

going to go in some and talk about our charts and sir I know remember I just a

booger-eater just one of the guys in the darts you know and and but then they

said okay we're going to need you over the log I know you were saying on the

last podcast that they had these log dams that

oh yeah they'd put dams across logs and the stop the boats up and just different

obstacles and shit or bunkers along and now we'd go in and blow up the bunkers

or brought the log dams you know if they had them and that's what I said they

first put us on what they called an alpha boat which was the lead boat and

they had one of the rare and one of the front and what would they look like

um not I don't have a picture over I can show you that I actually I anybody

looking looks up on the night inventory they'll be able to see yeah

anyway the Alpha boat we're on one of those and that's the one I told you we

got sunk on because of e-40 rock and hit us fighting the exhaust and things

started going down and we went ashore if it been a little bit higher to hit all

those stacks of c4 we had so but and then they started putting us in about

the 3rd or 4th boat back that's because they didn't want this big demo yeah we

did in the front alcoho yeah that makes sense pretty much ended

that one out so your boat gets hit with a rocket and it starts sinking and in

the was it like achi front of the boat I was could have been I just know her

first logic so yeah and they ran us up didn't start sinking down and we got off

their little perimeter and then the a zipper bolt came up and just holds

everything down and we swam over the simple Bolton got off the Zippo boat

it's so named because after the Zippo lighter because as a flame thrower yes

right directly out of I I know I popped this stuff off like people know what it

is it hadn't been there to see it but I mean it came zipping up and then we swam

over to it and we got on it and got out of it and he got everyone out of there

was yeah nobody got hurt or killed on that just that b40 rocket they started

opening up at our the boats opened up to and they they had 50s you know Jesus

Christ 20 what did you try and salvage and he's a demo just leave it well

actually would you blow it we were going to come back and do that but they

decided to have you OD do it so he went back and blew the boat up and all that

crap so yeah because it was just partly out of the water and stuff but they'd be

on pista software underwater demolition was like you know WTF you know yeah

that's what we do really well the UD guys I guess they didn't have a lot to

do so they sent them down there I don't know for his army or Navy EOD but no no

it's always good to blow things up that's one oh yeah my first deployment

to Iraq we didn't blow very much up and when I went to my second deployment to

Iraq I kind of had the attitude as if we had the opportunity to blow something up

we were going to blow it up seems like the smart thing to do they never take it

apart hip in place and load and play and

that one you know on the last podcast you were talking about that one

operation that you went on and you it was basically a giant ambush against the

whatever seven or eight votes that you guys had that the 9th infantry had and

they must have been prepared waiting for you got furred for this group to show up

and were they was the enemy that well organized at that point I wouldn't say

well organized but you know when you got psyops guys dropping pamphlets in saying

you know we may be doing something that's

you know all the good guys leave and stuff like that you know psyops had a

lot to play with that or the choppers going around with her speakers and you

know to me yeah so yeah that particular when there was another group of boats

that went up ahead of us dropped off their guys the 9th infantry were coming

back and we passed him and since we got by him I'd say about 10 minutes and we

got opened up on they didn't yet the first group they just hit our group and

you know that was a that was a bad day in Dodge City but it you know got hit

really bad but managed to get to the shore and put some of the guys off and

stuff and it was I think it was going to be a pincher movement where they came

hell fire people because they go up the other guys way off and there were three

UDT guys on that group and then there was three of us on the group that when

we got hit and your main mission was going to be demo if yeah basically yeah

but you know those are those big it's weird it's just like straight up

amphibious operations the army conducted you know think about that and the

Marines are holding the DMZ yeah yeah you were saying that the Marines were

busy upholding the DNA at that time yeah and it kind of blew me away that the 9th

Infantry did a good job and they were fighters you know they were out of

Washington state of Washington you know and they they were good good tooth yeah

um what about another different difference I mean even with the 9th

Infantry those guys I mean in UDT you guys are all volunteers and I mean and

you've said you would have been drafted had you not joined what did you did you

notice any difference between drafted guys and guys that were volunteers

didn't really work with that many army guys in the 9th Infantry the only thing

I can remember that stands out as I had a 2nd lieutenant come up to me when I

was on a riverboat one of the river boats they're about ready to land him

and he came up to me with his map and asked me where he was you know and that

kind of went that's a second lieutenant she's leading

uh you know platoon or squad of guys in you know that kind of you know I'm

saying I just don't know I don't know my thought of that was is we were trained

and we knew what we were going to do just like in SEAL team and we lean

forward and that's what we're going to do you just picked off the street go

through basic training and then you you know next thing you know you're up on a

hill and Vietnam being over and stuff that's got to be pretty traumatic you

know but then again Americans are Americans we fly you know ii mean

regardless but i think we were more psychologically set for what we did then

you're because of the extra training we had and stuff plus the guys that trained

us we're a lot of more vietnam guys and like i said second world war in korean

that gives you with the type of job they did that's what we do you got wounded on

that mission - yeah right how about did you get wounded just some shrapnel my

footing my leg no big thing did you did you take you out of the

field for no not at all fact i got up and started shooting along this guy this

other guy I thought we had this buddy of ours I think I told us he got hit really

bad for slapping on his arms and legs and I calls over to him after I move my

fingers and toes and everything realized that we all got blown down and then I

went over to him hit him with morphine put it through his collar then the

thirty gunner got blown off his gun so I got to start shooting a 30-year me no

big thing that's just what you do you know yeah we ran everything so yeah so

you check back what I would ask he got blown on the other side of him and calls

over to him didn't see my pin to his collar so hits him with another shot of

morphine you know yeah in about four or five minutes he kind of setup like this

is one to do something but he was he was scoot y'all sir really bad and and you

got up and start shooting and stuff and the guys that were down and everything

were after I don't thirty ran out of ammo I start shooting 16s and they hand

this up 16s a shoot and stuff floating forces hit and then like I said the ramp

went down we started going in towards beach to let the guys that want wounded

get off and we started taking fire right through the front so I went to one side

we went to the other side and I was using m79 to try to suppress fire and

stuff and we backed off and we got out of there

did you insert any of the army guy yeah about eight or nine of them yeah and how

big how many guys got inside of those like a company a company strength yeah

not yet smaller company it was eight boats a lot of people about he can put

about 25-30 goats here yeah we were here we like I said it was really a weird

thing because we're sitting in and everything just our fire going off and

we heard number one boats hit we're number four bald you know we're

number three number four yeah number two boats hit number three boats hit and I

remember I just turned and looked at and said we're fucked

and we got hit and what it did is it has a canvas cover and they had all those

wire stretchers stacked up and the b40 rocket was heading right towards the the

conning tower you know I mean earlier driving and everything but it went low

and hit those stretchers and it just went grew you know all that shit went

out so did you guys get good medical training I mean obviously knew how to

give morphine well UDT yeah it was pretty good but in a SEAL team we had

extensive mental medical training factor first Platoon I went over is a we had

our first class corpsman probably the best every week he had run a suit seven

rather with soggy head wounds or something sucking chest wounds and with

the same stuff that you guys did have the mannequins up in the wood and you'd

have to run up and treat him and what to do and we learned to give ourselves

serum albumin in case the corpsman was hit or something you need to give

yourself an ID we did all that stuff yeah all of us carry that with us

everybody had certain well bunam which is a blood volume expander keynote I

mean just in case you haven't but you TT not so much

we need morphine drone use a basics so of the basics and you know pressurize

and tourniquets and stuff like that but not not real real good in utt they do a

good job with that T Triple C classification ow

the factory 84 forgiving his hands or but you can do it combat trauma yeah

guys learned that and so they know what to do when somebody gets hit everybody

in the patina knows like a decent amount to get the guy stable like told us and

protune this is the one on 69 he says yeah I'm the only corpsman year and if I

get hit somebody's got to take care of me yeah he wider search good good for

him so you get home from that deployment and

now like you said you you knew you had enough the naked warrior stuff and you

said I want to get a big machine gun but I will say that was one of the best

appointments I was on the guys and everything the UDT 12 at that time was

comprised of class 40 41 and 42 and summer 43 but everybody knew everybody

you know I mean it was real tight and real good and Subic Bay would put along

to shame oh sure wish yeah I guess after we've been there for about three weeks

you're ready to go to a yeah their debt just to get out there you go to Vietnam

to stand right yeah pretty much no I never realized that you guys would go

back to you know back to to the day in the middle of deployment that's that's

yeah well we would for then you'd head off to your next kid like to say we were

there for nine months and each day was about three months you know I mean maybe

a little less but we'd have some downtime and see we can then we deal

with our next debt which is pretty nice you know nine months is a long time but

still you know then actually back in the day CB day was almost worse than Vietnam

in some areas because it was almost like the gangsters back in Chicago you had

all these different gangs where after each other to shed me when you're just

walking down next I thought you almost had to look around the corner to see if

you know they were shooting at each other before you walked by and shit it

was a was pretty uh kind of like the wild wild west and you said that the

whole UDT 12 at that time was made up of all guys from the same

like five or six months ago guys that were there - from the other classes but

it was a the majority of us that were put into platoons and suffer from class

40:39 maybe the athlete I was ahead of a safe mode a lot of them went out some

went to 12 - they just put him 11 before you went to a UDT team right and then

yeah a lot of more guys that were you know behind us but remember we only ran

two classes a year but no kidding you know two classes a year yeah because 39

was graduated and then we started 40 okay and then we graduated and that's

when 41 was starting you know I mean what do they run now like 5 yeah

something like that 5 6 it was something like 5 when I went through yeah I think

so so you had a good experience with UDT

but you still wandering oh yeah I'm glad to go to me and I got him we put in the

chit everyone to go to seal team and they yelled at us and said yeah none to

get back you know so when we got back we're the first two out of you Takeda

CAD Drake that's awesome and I was you know echo and I had a conversation I was

talking about how at COP one when I was in training cells tilting when we called

ourselves cadre and I didn't really know where that came from but I knew that

that was what it was called and we were proud that we are Cod rest but then I

was listening to do the podcast that you you came on and you were talking about

Cochran you guys actually called a cadre training that's what xqt was yeah was

cloudberry yeah guys that taught her were Cogley instructors and that just

carried on a Clarion 14 training was different you know once you got in your

gut at a sqt or Cadbury then you went to a platoon and he went to platoon turning

- and that was still ran by some of the cadre and Licata yeah because we had our

own train 71 team one training cells been around that long run it was yeah

yeah that was the only team that's sure it wasn't another team it was UDC guys

single guys yeah that work up or or the cadre training now you started getting

heavy with field craft with I mean oh everything yeah all every ambushes you

name it and then we had the element ever we were done and the element River

is a lot like Vietnam they actually set up a whole thing there to look like a

village they had a little wooden outpost were that you know at the whole nine

yard you have to work you'll go down get in and then work your way in and stuff

and it was just like Vietnam it was pretty close and that once again the

people that are teaching you are F seals that are in cadre now who probably just

got back from Vietnam so they got fresh information from the back they are very

go to training our training 71 every time a platoon came back they'd pull two

or three of the best guys from that platoon and put him into our training so

and that was every platoon that came back they did that so he had a crosscut

of all the different areas of Vietnam and guys that had been in there that did

well not that's who I keep doing good guys like and just some great guys I

mean we got good training and I mean there was no bullshit because they knew

we knew that what we learned there was going to save our asses in our buddies

butts so we got pounded into our heads we did River and stream crossing a lot

because you had a lot of rivers and you know small canals well not small canals

but pretty good-sized either walked on the run up the other side or you went

across them you know like as a 60 gunner I always carried about 3 UD T's with me

to help me fold across but I'm just saying you had to judge the curve right

so when you went out it would bring you right in where you're supposed to be and

stuff like that you know I mean just a extensive training the Alamo rivers not

real it's a not a real fast-moving stream but it has a good current and so

you learned all that you know you know you learned what you had to have your

gear you had like we do a swimming-pool stuff whether 60s is yet to see where we

needed to have the flotation and stuff like that you know I mean it was pretty

good actually when I went out to Niland we didn't even have the camp out there

we had in island itself the town there was a gas station

it had about four or five green little green trailers and that's where we

stayed at and then they truck us up to where the

canal was a huge and stuff a lot of times we'd go up there then we'd run

back and stuff you know what I mean and we'd go up to chocolate mountains up to

Beall wells and stuff like that for ambushes and just you know I mean we had

no camp the window camp their life and siphon what was that sighs I can't

remember the cycle right I mean all along the whole area in fact later on or

has implications that would be going to talk about and come back some other way

and you'd still see holes were forty mike-mike it would into stuff you know

from back in the how much how much work were you doing at night oh that's all

the only time we worked every Monday we do our media action drills and stuff

during the day and stuff but all of our ambushes and all the other field graph

that we did and everything was all at night because that's when we worked and

that was the that was the known thing it was like yep we're gonna go out at night

that's what we do pretty much you know how much did you guys did you guys go

out if there was a full moon would you go out less in Vietnam would you go out

less if there's a full moon and because you had foliage and stuff you couldn't

see that well it was still dark enough you know sometimes in a desert a full

moon it's almost like beta oh yeah yeah yeah and what you know you're talking

about gear a little bit what you carried and there's all these kind of myths

about what guys were doing work in the day and in in Vietnam one of them is

blue jeans like everyone wore blue jeans or a lot a lot of guys wore blue jeans

which kind of makes sense to me because they're tough right that was the whole

reason was the mosquitos you can go through them and if you're in mangroves

and stuff it wouldn't tear them and stuff rip stop would tear and if you

bend down like you wouldn't you stopped and stuff excuse me each alive right to

the RIP stop and stuff so we started wearing the blue jeans and you wanted to

get zip up blue jeans not to button up because they also kept leeches bugs if

you had to budge button button up ones you were screwed and then sometimes we

wore pantyhose underneath that to keep leeches off it but would take the Levi's

and put them into our jungle boots and riggers tape them around so you know we

did it wouldn't just be hanging down where shit could come up and so

because there are a lot of leeches over there no big thing but I mean you just

you just learned you know like I say the penny hose that's pretty funny because

we were on see folk don't guys would be walking around with pink and blue and

yellow pantyhose on stuff and satyrs are giving us kind of some weird looks and

shit the cut of funny how about guys going barefoot well we had a couple guys

that do that and guys stepped on stuff and injured themselves and that I didn't

see that very much at all myself in my platoons maybe other platoons okay yeah

yeah that was a big thing but a lot of times we don't walk on trails we walked

outside of the trails and there's all kinds of shit in there and you don't

want to just be there for it I guarantee you so you get done with that workup and

everything how about how about like your your your pig gunner hired stories about

guys taken every round out of their belt and lubing every individual round

especially stole I heard that about stoner Gunners that they take every

round out of their belt and lube every individual round and put it back in

there Zach not sure I've never seen that happen and we had four guys that carried

the stoner machine gun in my last platoon but I don't know why you'd take

him out and put him back in yeah they jammed a lot but that was just a stoner

thing we sent our guys to cadillac gage which is who made this door so they

could learn all the intricacies and what to do if something happened here I mean

the big guns the sexy you didn't have to worry about

it that much as long as you took care of that baby it did work for you anytime I

ever had a malfunction was operator error

you know Oh kind of like having a slide down your arm got Hannah you get a link

stuck in there or your human ear you have your do-rag around your neck and it

gets caught in circulation I guess just in range you learn you know I don't know

who told me one ball one of Vietnam SEALs told me the story that like he had

the D yes oh he's a STONER gunner and when he came back he checked in his

weapon and he was going and joined another platoon sir

went to get a new stoner not a new stoner but one of the stoners out of the

armory and he got wind check the stoner out of the armory and are engraved in

the buttstock of the stoner it said everybody must get stoned which I always

got a good ol bag that could have been I was but that 60 it was just and you

developed exactly like my basic load was about 6:30 because we had a hundred

thirty round box okay yeah we had China Lake made that goes went right on the

side of it and we slung it you know and shot it from the hip but after shooting

thousands of rounds from from the hip you get really good I the barrel

coordination of exactly where that round was going to go but even regardless you

always worked it in because it wasn't a young sound excuse me a point weapon

like a m14 you know it was it's an area weapon but still you can get pretty

accurate with that son of a bitch and you'd always walk your rounds in because

what you know rounds well Shane off could hit a guy just as well as get him

right square in his chest or something and I use canteen pouches and carry five

cam team canteen pouches around my waist and I put a hundred rounds there and

leave about an inch out of that got it and then when I put fire and I knew I

was getting low I pop my lid open on my can I had grabbed my thing of my sixty

round snap men and dump them in and close it or the lid when it opened up

that ridges on the side it would slide right in just dependent you know but

what was good about that box is you could be blowing upside down or anything

you still have 130 rounds ready to shoot you know I mean that's why we liked it

but that's place uh it was a it's a navy experimental place called China Lake and

we saw we had them built in for us and they work really well did you use a

sling yeah I don't know what we did is we took the big buck plate off put an

aircraft but played on and if you noticed in the back you have that round

thing that would take up who would cook to see that bring it up and took a

hanger and made it down rule like this and I put around the front of the hanger

so you could take it off when you Chopra she can hold it down and then you

could take it off put it on but you got it fit just right where it was just

right exactly where you wanted to do and it worked great you know we were

invented fucks man we figured it out anyone like we is on this one boat one

time and we saw these 60 guys they were they had 60's on the boats you know they

had these big metal containers at the round cylinder in the world what to

attend it was a flex tube that went into the 60 and so a couple K bars later we

walked off with a couple of those and they were fit perfect in the back of a

brick 77 backpack we can put them on held 500 rounds and you had to flex dude

that went right into your 60 you had to have a special feed Tory for you know

you know it's betrayed the the feet Roy was right on the end of the flex tube so

it set right in there perfect so and then if we're doing an off the chopper

charge the bunker up he had 500 rounds right there it was kind of neat were the

only ones in Vietnam that at that fact we came off choppers one time we're

doing parakeet ops I'll tell you about that later and there was a whole bunch

army guides and stuff where we landed with the choppers were getting out

beating each other on the back and a couple good firefights and shit you know

and just and all the quarter light coming up and everything we're all

bearded and you know Levi's and all that shit and they're saying goddamn I told

you that mercenaries over here was a Mercer than one guy says in all that

seals you guys had you guys are the originators of the predator pack pretty

much I think I think we were they use them on the boats but not on not out in

the field you couldn't the thought I'd have to feed it

no it just it fed itself right how's the botany data folder not out nothing it's

just group right through there but you got to be careful because if you took

that thing off and laid it down and didn't put a nail through the through

the Flex part of it all year round had come out so they have this big pile 500

round that's not good you know especially if used in a firefight and

stuff trying to put it back in you know I'm just saying just funny but it was I

was pretty good me and our guy named to us had those and we fixed them up just

just playing looking at I think but you couldn't patrol at night with

them on patrol because it would clank-clank he could hear a lot moving

that was only if you're actually going off and hitting sub like you say there

are three types of ops we'd go into if we hear we're going to take heavies one

was a downed pilot and another seal platoon in trouble and a bright light

was by like that's a prisoner war going in to hit them get them out but those

three ops or the main main three woody wooden two no matter what it you know

yeah that's awesome you get so you finish your work up and now you're over

till you go your first opponent of Vietnam this kilo platoon yeah so Kela

platoon vietnam and you're saying you were doing the first podcast you were

saying that he did dart board operations which was have a guy huh cat dark

because you guys didn't have good intel you didn't have good support okay we

were at a place called noon yam can and it was a vietnamese a firebase out in bf

egypt you know and then we're here then down here he had the river and sea full

where our other squad was but our squad got put up here that was the one just

one squad out there by itself yeah oh dang with the bid vietnamese

guys had a fire be sir okay and it was not good intel so you basically would

throw a dart at the dartboard and then do what go do an ambush there go set an

ambush may just go out and look set up ambush or sup and see what was out

patrol yeah and that and you also were inserting primarily on san-pan turn that

deployment pretty much as always we about three times we walked out of the

fire base and locked back in that's just that doesn't give you a warm and fuzzy

you know because change guards and stuff and you come back in all a/c is moving

out there and maybe they don't know what the bonafide he is for you coming back

in and shit and you don't say that so yeah we didn't do a lot up at noon am

can because of that and we only had sand pans we didn't have any of our boats up

there none of the mediums or lights or anything so after we'd been up there for

about a month I think a month and a half then they brought us maybe two months

and then they brought us down the sea float

okay then we start doing some good officer the sand pants how big is the

sampan how many guys could you fit in it oh four or five so you take champion fam

because we were ever yellow today to take you sand pants you could have you

ever gotten into a sampan no there it's not a real stable bully Vietnamese are

good in them because they're small but you get about five big Americans in

there and it's a you have to be real careful and are you rowing it no I mean

it's got a little motor on the back and a little like we use that again with

this we can put it along with us wasn't it just ourselves now and then and then

someone would stay with the boats yeah yeah the gozi and went or they believe

I'm going to come back and get us you know but you didn't start working a lot

until you got to see flow yeah I mean what kind of officer doing on a sea

float now same thing ambushes and going upriver setting up ambushes and that's

when I told you I think you know I get a little bit confused sometimes on PBRs

and Swift so I'm thinking they were PBRs that were down the seafloor with but

they would we'd go up on the PBR and have a Boston Whaler with us and a

Boston Whaler could probably hold four or five guys you know plus the guy on

the front with a sixty and get the guy driving well with the way we had worked

at is we had the whole platoon there one platoon would be going to do something

well two guys out the other I mean other one squatted go up and two guys from the

other squad luckily got to pick to be the driver sitting up on a thing driving

the the Boston later and the other guy in the 60s why everybody else was just

looking over the edge like this and didn't get there again it wasn't you

didn't get real excited when you were chosen to be the Coxon you know how

often would you guys make enemy contact when you guys go out on ambush because I

had to be kind of like looking for a needle in a haystack right yeah we got

some contact that was the one down at square Bay I told you about when we hit

there when I wasn't on that when they hit that junk and then all the mother

flavors are definitely and a few other times we got in some

some crap that particular that that platoon and that deployment wasn't we

didn't do an awful lot we went out a lot get me wrong but we didn't get a lot of

firefights and stuff it was my second book to that where we kicked ass today

and it sounds like I mean this is sort of classic and you and I were talking

about this earlier today if you don't have good Intel that said you know how

AM Bush all day without a sea float we didn't have that good event Errol you

know like we didn't have a chief of a platoon we had an LPO and no mention of

any names but he wasn't real good but we had this other guy that Chief Coroner

told I'm not cheap at that Corman it was the first class that he kind of

took over everything he had been with the Marines twice ok Vietnam so he was a

good hand you don't need that I had a shift together with smart and just a

couple funny things happen when it was down the sea floor I told you where that

pile of clothes moved and such as head of all you're looking for me we thought

we had lost him you know and that was like this chopper comes in and lands to

him did one was pretty shot up and door gunner had been hit so they said hey

anybody want to be a door gunner we got to go back and pick up some other guys

well of course is a corpsman y'all go so he's in unities he throws a flak jacket

on the Hillman and takes the door gunner position and they take off and about a

half hour later the chopper comes back in and lands shot up even more here he

gets off the I mean he gets off the boat tows us helmet down takes it flat

shotgun fuck I'll never do that again yeah those we had a this guy Colonel

Colonel reader on who was a pilot in Vietnam he flew cobras in Vietnam the

second deployment but those guys those pilots in Vietnam the helicopter pilot

in Vietnam they did not they knew they were going to take rounds they just went

in anyways they were bad at that was the same as our sea wolves and black

policeman Cecile's especially were just unbelievable guys you know just uh they

were just badass dudes man they and I told you at once or you and I bought

that one chopper not all work so kind of pinned down

behind this rice dike and we're getting some pretty heavy fire from the tree

lines so we're calling for close air support that's the Seawolves you know so

we're getting up shooting getting back down by 60 and we're getting kind of low

on ammo too except the sea walls we always had a most aging on the sea

walls so he could kick it off to us when they came in so the seagulls are coming

in we can hear the rotor wobble oh well when the Seawolves weren't doing they

were the greatest when they weren't doing a close air support that do psyops

they had these great big speakers and so we hear this one sea wolf coming behind

us we're still shooting everything also now the clear blue sky a sort of God you

hear this we are their gods or Hellfire and we bring you fire and the fucking

Rockets one overhead hit the tree line and they either had a fifty or a minigun

on one side of the sea wolf and that sea wolf turn like that and just hold it

down I think that one had a minigun on the right behind came another see well

but when they when we heard that we really everybody just tops you two we

look back up like fuck oh it was unreal and that scenario didn't really suppress

a fire so then the black bone they add two point seven Rockets and black ponies

came in with the five in zoomies when they hint hit the tree line it was

blowing shit clip overhead and that pretty much quote still got out of this

sealord's came in the rigger Huey's that picked us up and got us out of there

that was that was a good awful the the sea Wolf's were the Navy pilots Navy

Vietnam Pyle townships that came in supported we're like cobras they were

regular yeah they're regular that rocket pods and I think kind of like the black

ponies had the 20 millimeter guns in the front and then the five in Zooey's they

had the just a rocket pods but they had a 50 on one side and or a minigun on the

other side and the most important thing that they had from everything I've heard

and from what you're telling me right now is they had balls oh yeah oh yeah

there was good they were just come in and we got drunk one night

our bar and Seawolves are on the army side that's where they had the thing so

we figured he'll look over and visit them and have him drink with us so we

jumped in our six by and headed out we were they had the army base here and the

Navy base here we lived on the Vietnamese side and had her own home

barracks all fortified it was perfect well anyway we got our six pine was

heading out went over where the sea wolf guys where we want to drink with us you

know we had our 60s little stuff you never knew you know so we get over there

and go walking in their compound everything all right boys get up let's

drink well I'll see we made them drink with us naked because we were all naked

so we're all sitting there drinking beers

it makes nakedness em 60s and booze I like where this is going yeah you guys

had way much the way more fun in Vietnam oh yeah we are time I'm telling you we

weren't we would get back for not do or debrief cleaner weapons and go up and

get shit-faced you know those thinker no reader said the same thing he goes he

goes yeah you know we'd go out we'd fly we get shot up we'd have to come back

and like put the birds in for repair I didn't we'd get drunk yeah and then we

go he goes I don't know he really like looked at me he said I don't know how

you guys did it without alcohol basically yeah that was a you know went

to Desert Storm were over there nine months and no alcohol sup it was okay

but it mean to me it was just like yeah this isn't my war you know we really

didn't do that much in yeah you know the guy did recons instead from my job and

we did that one deception up and when we inserted the Quai tease each other

during in minutes outside that they never really gotten to firefighter yet

you know yeah now that's that off with a Seawolf that was I'm assuming that was

on your second appointment yeah that was the first of your first appointment you

know you did what you did but it wasn't as fruitful no I get to meet as the

honest-to-god truth coming out of 18 the SEAL team I was ready to hit the deck

running and just being like we didn't get the deck running over there

and just didn't have the Intel I don't think are as you were saying leadership

was all that good and stuff I mean we had one guy the LT what they were doing

some shit down in C folk but up where we were we just didn't you couldn't it

wasn't that much you could do you would go out and look try to find shit and

everything but we didn't have actual Intel yeah that we could react on you

know what you found out later that's what you have to have sometimes too I

think people spread their forces too thin when you think about it you just

take a squad and put them out there in the middle nowhere with no Intel support

and you got another squad in some other area with no Intel support you know you

might as well bring them together put a couple guys gather Intel and you start

making something happen the platoon before us that was there and stuff that

that was the tune Mosley has gotten a lot of shit you know hey that's when he

got a Medal of Honor and stuff like that and actually my second trip over had

been in that platoon here on Amin and Villa told me some stories about they

got a lot of shit but that's we were stuck in Union can and just didn't well

shit like you can see the u-men force which was at the very southern part of

Vietnam and it's just Triple Canopy just I mean it's we were away from that a

little bit you know but this whole Vietnamese guy there he had tattoos all

over and I guess he had fought with the French against the Viet net Viet Minh

you know which was the bad guys fighting the French the same as VC and and we're

tuned interpreter we're talking him and I goddamn human force you know it's he

says yeah a whole company of French Foreign Legion paratroopers jumped in

there and none of them ever came back out and were gone plus that's what I was

telling you in my last podcast I did that's where we landed and we're just

starting to put our shit away and just loads lands and it's approved visor and

a good friend of mine real good friend of mine now and then when that load took

off we got to ship mortared out for about two hours and I absolutely told

him don't ever come here again yeah so now when you get back you get

back you do another workup and well actually got out for a little bit you

come back in you side you know that's like when I went to college I had to go

I had to get my alt I got my commission I had to go to college and people say

would you learn in college and I'd say I learned in college never ever ever ever

get out of the teams everybody knows what they do so you get out for a year

or something and you come back in and get in your your second platoon getting

ready to go to Vietnam mber platoon yes okay as he just passed and what a great

guy I mean I was he the platoon commander yes he was the owner he died

we LT you know he's a great guy just a great guy man yeah and he just passed

here about three weeks ago we went up and Rosecrans and they buried him and

stuff but he was a great guy man and that work up that work up did it did

must change between your first work up until came in your second one actually

when I got out when we came back in I went back to Kadri okay just a you know

kind of rush yourself refreshed had been about a year as out you know I mean and

just what that's why he didn't keep one if you were gone way over six months or

something you went back to Kadri yester even the guys that came from these

coasts yes so they know how we worked himself which was good while I was going

through Kadri Jerry Fletcher was out there with us platoon and I got to know

him and I knew some of the other guys in between so as soon as I got out of Kadri

they lost a guy in their platoon and lucky enough I was good enough to get

into it so I didn't go through the whole workup with November 2 I just got in it

and that's why I Stan you is down it to greenfield they used to have a firing

range down there and I was figuring out man might cute

sup Mel side you know that's when I actually asked the first that's when I

picked up a sixty million this guy we shot at this Korea so log pieces flew

off to Korea so log and we set it on fire and I remember looking they look at

me it was like we're in exile that was it

there are 62 beautiful things but no it's a great thing so this next

deployment that you mentioned this on the on the first podcast when you came

on about the orders that you got from was it from Mac V SOG is that who you

can order scout nav for V nav for yeah and we landed in Saigon and our Lt died

we went up to see where we're going to go or what area we're going to work in

what province you know and he went up there and they told him well you got the

VIN long province which is where dong cam is and stuff and he said his orders

were to pacify it the hell was in and we brought it he picked up a whole bunch of

money so we can pay our Kit Carson Scouts enough like that we went to dong

town well we stopped had been luck first it's about 40 miles away from dong town

there was another platoon there Gary Gallagher's platoon and we shows up in

her six bodies and stuff and we're kind of rugged looking because we'd been in

Saigon for three days and have a good time and shitting comes walking out and

he looks at us he goes goddamn you guys look like he'd been here six months

already you always a little bedraggled to shit then we went to dong town but we

used to go back and forth God was an applet ood George anger they just had

some great guys yeah and they were like I said there were our system for tune

you know so we'd go and see each other once in a while with the sister platoons

to play at the same time no they had been over there for three months okay so

was it like a overlap of three months the Antikythera and some of them yeah

the two of me go at the same time usually when you got there there was

another platoon somewhere around yet rather east coast or west coast course

East Coast had two platoons over there so fun tell I'm thinking it was long

oh god I'm still trying to think of that name it's right on a river and that's

where the East Coast platoon was we never not be that's where was not being

and that's where the East Coast put something out there they had the platoon

there and they had a platoon of metal that was there two platoons and then we

took over when they left we took over the one that dong Mito but we moved to

dog town because we didn't want to be right in the middle of a city you know

or a big big yellow City though we moved down to dong Tam and then the Navy base

didn't want us the army base didn't want to so they put us in the Vietnamese base

that split them so there you go yeah that was good we had our boats right

there everything was perfect we go to the army base to test fire our weapons

is yet and they were doing that all the time anyway so it wasn't it's another

thing I wonder how in retail how they test fired their weapons in anyway so

what was your op temple-like when you are on the second deployment was that

the deployment was a with God but every two to three days cuz you had to gather

Intel and stuff like that and and it would get a little break and if we were

real bored we'd do what we called parakeet ops and there was this area I

don't know if I talked about this in the first podcast but it was a place called

the plain of reeds and it was all enemy as lvc and so we'd take off four or five

of us in a queue Ian have a Seawolf in front and back of us and we just fly out

there start looking go over go over small Hamlet's and villages and if you

see vc run around and get shot at they'd land us with sweetu then they'd pick us

up we'd go look for some more you know that's when we're bored you know we call

them parakeet offs then the when we hit and start spreading

around the sea wolf would go off I mean not see what the Sealord which is our

Huey and then the Seawolves and start circling looking first quarters and

stuff you know it was good we might get in two or three firefights

you know yeah I guess yeah that's not that was daytime off you yes

you're just running those daytime office and what you will you just look at the

map and say hey this is probably no oh yeah the planner reads the whole place

a leaky stronghold VC stronghold a lot of VC out there so and then that's when

we took a couple of the Austrians with us on that those parakeet outs and stuff

in the boom out of the water how they like it did they come back for more oh

yeah we other groups come down less than I mean that from do we debt worthy

Australian SAS word went out with him and that was pretty pretty unique yeah

my sexy and about 500 rounds 120 pound pack and walked around for about eight

days I was real happy about that yeah that's no joke it was good they were

they're great troops and you know they loved coming down working with us

because we got contact and when they you know they're they look for things to see

if what they could find they had two types that you had a five man fighting

patrol or attend I mean a five man Ricky or a ten man fighting patrol where we

went out with him it was a ten man fighting patrol because we were going to

go into this area that the Australian armored infantry had taken over this

North Ian in the North Vietnamese army base camp and just decimated it well our

job was to go see if any the NVA able back into the area or not it was good

that's like I said my first podcast is the best reconnaissance guys I've ever

ever worked good so they're fighters - yeah they're good good good good troops

yeah a lot of some reason a lot of people ask me if you've ever worked with

foreign troops everyone want to come kind of wants to know what we think of

their countries and their troops you know and you know the Brits and the

Aussies you know the SAS or top Jill for sure none of the only ones that went out

with us on patrol and I think were in Vietnam we were the only ones that one

out of them you know you know it all started out with a couple of SAS guys

drinking the bar with a couple our guys and Cooper Pat's and telling tall tales

and you know drinking beers and shed next thing you know we have this

exchange and it's been ongoing sense yeah always when I was a team one there

was always out on SAS guy there yeah Julia did you when you went to good did

you get to go to off so I never went though oh you'd love it

that's embarrassing shit it's great I always got a always got screwed out of

going on I went for five times after Vietnam and Hill there was still guys

there that had been to Vietnam with yes you don't mean it was good it was great

yeah I I always got screwed for some reason I'd always go well yeah yeah

we're going to Australia tell me something will come up when we wouldn't

get to go that's because your platoon officer wasn't very well liked or

something hey most likely what uh when you say you get contact a lot so you're

doing an OP every two three days how often are you guys getting an enemy

contact just about every time we went out because we were going out on

actionable Intel I don't mean and uh I said I can't think of all of it like

that one time I was telling you in another time we hit these two hoochies

and guys came out it was like the OK Corral except we won and another time

we're doing this recon just looking and that's one guy forgets up on top of this

bunker because we couldn't find any entrance around it they may have had a

tunnel come into it some learn he's up there I'm staying here in this guy so as

a six he's there and we're kind of watching the area for him while he's up

there looking around and cue to into tune right by me comes as 1847 rounds

and they missed me I don't know how the hell they missed me but then jumps off

the the bunker down right beside me was gone yeah the guys over there the guys

over there and we hear yelling and we'll shoot the son of a bitch finally we saw

where his rounds came in and we start to another time we got pinned down a little

bit and we were going to go and hit this check this hospital out and stuff when

we got hit pretty hard we had to pull back and now move out that might have

been when we got pinned down you know was that when you called him to

Seawolves yeah we called them in a few times you know ya know it's interesting

because people think that every time you go out you're going to get enemy contact

and you could see I mean your first deployment it was rare that you'd get

enemy contact the second time it's a lot more