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Practice English Speaking&Listening with: Jocko Podcast 157 w/ Echo Charles: When to Play The Game, When To Break The Rules

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this is Jocko podcast number 157 with echo Charles and me Jocko Willing good

evening echo good evening I was in a seal platoon serving as the assistant

platoon commander in the late 90s no that means yes no war going on that's

what it means so we were training we were training

hard and this platoon that I was in at the time we were going through urban

training urban combat training we were pretty far along in the training and we

were starting to get our our simunition which is like fake bullets our

simunition in paintball wars on force-on-force training and we were

doing like multi-day operations so almost like a scenario like you've got a

full scenario going on like there's bad guys in the city yeah no it's the

concrete city the fake city with concrete buildings that are pretty much

just the shells of buildings and we're going against opted for seals we call an

op for that stands for opposing force so the opposing force there are other seals

who are role players pretending to be bad guys they know our tactics they know

our techniques they know our procedures and on this particular day they had

captured one of our seals from our platoon mmm the bad guys the role

players was that part of the scenario or just a made it part of this good so

whatever they did they caused confusion they caused mayhem they end up with one

of our guys okay just on their own though that wasn't part of the overall

training no it is you know when I was running training we always did that too

so it's just a long-standing kind of hey if you can capture one of the seals yeah

yeah yeah always like never leave a man behind right let's get him to leave a

man ray okay about that huh so at this point like I said they had they had

captured and I don't remember exactly but they'd captured one our guys and

they had him in a building it was a big a pretty big building like a pretty big

but rectangular type building five stories maybe maybe it's four stories

but anyways they had him they didn't have them in the top four

but they had him in like the the floor below the top floor so he's kneeling on

the third floor the fourth floor I forget but they have the guy in there

and remember this is not there's no power in the city and it's the city is

out in the middle of nowhere it's a fake city so you can hear everything right

kind of even pretty much here what's going on so they have our guy and

they're like torturing him mock torturing him and of course they're up

there Tom like scream louder and easy Yellin and yeah you know that they're

feeding him what to yell and try and get us all riled up there there

he's screaming they're gonna kill me they're gonna violate me he's screaming

so they're having a good time with it and so our standard operating procedures

like oh you know what okay so there's a building needs to be cleared we go and

we clear the whole building we start on the ground floor we clear every room

then we go up to the next floor we clear every room we go for the next one that

means that there's not gonna be any bad guys that get get into your train mm-hm

there's not gonna be any bad guys in between your force which can cause a

blue on blue so when you're gonna clear every room that mean you're gonna move

down these hallways and you're gonna go from the bottom of the top and that's

just kind of the plan right sort of normal and like I said we could we knew

where they were so we immediately Oakley we're kind of like we are great get me

there save our guy yeah we're all fired up and as we were or doing this you know

the the standard plan come up look okay we'll go in this East door we'll just

clear the first floor in a second gonna be too you know

and as I'm sitting there kind of listening to this I I just said hey no

let's do this instead let's just sneak up to the building cuz you can get to

the building behind other buildings you could find a little sneaky way to get

there I'm like let's sneak in the dead space dead spaces areas where the enemy

can't see you or where you can't see the enemy it's just areas where there's no

line of sight I said let's let's go and there was an

external stairs like a fire escape on the outside of one I said let's go

straight to the to the floor he's on well won't clear any of the other floors

we won't clear any of the rooms we'll just go right in the home go go directly

to where he's at hmm and now plan so we did it and yeah

and the thing was it was it was we weren't that was that kind of a new idea

right like lay let's do I'm not up to believe me I'm not saying I'm the first

guy that ever thought listen I'm not I'm just saying our mindset at that moment

was hey this is what we're being trained to do we'll do it we're trying to do so

for anyone that's listening for any my team guy brothers are like you didn't

think I'm not saying I thought I'm saying at that moment in time we were

focused on doing it one way and I said let's do something a little bit

different and and then once I said it everyone's like yeah yeah cuz there was

like everyone knew that was the right answer right but you just had to have

that different look at it for a moment and so we did it we went to the extra

monster when we went up really quiet there's anything we're like we're not

gonna say you know me call it clear and you say next room and all this other

stuff we weren't gonna say anything yeah we're just gonna stay quite so we

went all the way up the stairs quietly we walk in and we can hear him hear him

yelling out the window like oh but you better get him quick and all this stuff

and then we go into the room silently and shoot all the OPFOR in the back we

killed him on a moose a per hostage and it was one there was one SEAL cadre who

we gave them and I'm not gonna give his actual nickname but his nickname was

along the lines of semi Jimmy because simunition was was simunition of what we

used and semi jimmy was really good at being a bad guy and so and he would

laugh at us mm-hmm you know we'd be moving through a building and he could

hear me if he shot you in the neck and he'd be aiming for your neck or your

nuts like you have a good time with that's what you want you know you want

you guys guard so semi Jimmy we but we got this moment with semi Jimmy shot him

in the back mm-hmm and they were you know they were stoked you know he could

see even though they want to win and they want to beat us but they're still

stoked he wasn't cackling he was you know he

was stoked on and so they died we safer guys so my point in this is that

sometimes you have to do things that the enemy is not gonna expect that people

aren't gonna expect that your competitors not gonna expect

the hard part about doing that it isn't actually doing the thing that they don't

expect right it's cuz like I said other this is not what I what I said to do

wasn't this you know miraculous Eureka moment of tactical genius it wasn't that

this was a anyone that want to take it a step back would have said like that's a

good call let's do that instead but we are all wrapped up in that situation and

so you want to learn how to do that you want to learn how to and again it's

about detaching but a couple things that'll help you with that one is don't

be the person that's planning everything mmm but don't be the person and and it's

hard especially we talk about extreme ownership like and you ever wants to be

a leader and they want to step up don't try not to be the guy that comes

up with every plan literally try not to be that guy now are

there times when you're a lower member where you want to like step up and come

out the plan yeah I'm talking about when you're in actual leadership position

when you're a junior and you're you're trying to learn you're trying to bring

forth ideas yeah man come up with some plans you know shoot that idea because

you're throwing out good ideas that are gonna get bounced off the boss but when

you're the guy that's in charge try not to be the guy that plans everything try

not to be the guy that makes every single call let the subordinates plan or

let the superiors plan let other people come up with plans now are other

situations where like they're just you've got to make calls of course there

are but there's a dichotomy right but in that particular situation I didn't feel

the need that I had to be the guy that came up with a plan like let other

people do that and you know if someone else had come up with they come up with

that standard plan and it was and I hadn't like detached I would've been

okay cool that's what we're doing we're you know we're going forward you know

but you have to allow other people to come up with plenty the other thing is

recognize that the wave you know of doing something might not fit you might

not know everything it's it's a good thing to always think yourself you might

not know everything right that's a good idea to have in your mind or is that

what I know might not work that's something else what

I know might not work that's another really smart thing to constantly replay

in your head they what I know might not work mmm that's it then you know so that

that means you've got to have an open mind and then you got to remember of

course that rules sometimes you have to break rules you have to be very

judicious when you decide you're gonna break rules and there's some principles

that that you cannot violate without massive reason without a massively heavy

reason and a way to mitigate the risks of breaking whatever those fundamentals

are like cover move like their cover move you should never violate cover move

ever except for when it just makes sense that you need to violate it so that and

that story right there kind of leads into the first question of Q&A which we

have an mqa in awhile and the first question is well

go ahead first question first question you read you recently said Hackworth was

a rule follower most of his career but in about face the book he always talks

about how he went against his command his rules how do you play the game but

also act like Hackworth yeah and so this is a classic example of the dichotomy

leadership with regard to obeying rules and and Hackworth

absolutely obeyed the rules and he obeyed them to the to the extreme

sometimes if you remember in the book he he he worked in situations where he they

were like the strictest in garrison so like not in combat just in garrison he

would everything's perfect uniform if you remember when general Mookie amo was

on and we talked to it we talked to him about meeting hack for the first time

mm-hmm and you know I was kind of like what was

he like and he was all he was high and tight haircut totally squared away

that's following the rules to ante and the other thing that he played he

definitely played he played the game hackworth played the game he developed

with he developed relationships with people that were senior to him people

that were influential SLA Marshall who he went on tour with if you remember

through Vietnam and a cently Marshall he didn't really even respect book SLA

Marshall had such big influence that he said hey you know what how could it

become Bros with this guy he played the game because Marshall had influence and

he even took some hits you know took a little frag from for SLA Marshall hmm

but at the same time if his troops weren't getting the right treatment that

they needed he would do what he needed to do he would break rules to take care

of them if he had to and at the same time he would follow the rules to T if

you remember when he took over the battalion in Vietnam the hopeless and

wanted to turn him into the hardcore he brought all their crap into the middle

of the thing and said we're gonna fly it out of here no more radios no more

guitars none of this other stuff and getting it out so that's like following

the rules to a tee but at the same time if he needed to like steal food for them

or stake something to get a lot you know he would do that stuff so he's

constantly balancing that dichotomy another thing he did is he he took these

administrative jobs that he hated in order to rise through the ranks in order

to become to get to get places to develop relationships so we could have

more influence he was assigned to the Pentagon he in the book he talks about

the Pentagon being working in the Pentagon being a claustrophobic whole no

more than 20 by 20 feet with 15 other people in it and he talks about Isaiah

you'd say your paper you're in inbox would be filled when you showed up and

you'd immediately the phone would be ringing he'd be talking to people all

over the world via if all the people in Vietnam they're calling you there their

time zone and so he didn't like this job but guess what got the highest possible

evaluations when he left why cuz he played the game and he built these

relationships with with all these kernels and all these generals and all

these people that had influence there's Glover Jones and Pearson and countless

others by doing what he needed to do and then

and he needed to he broke he broke the rules and sometimes he went a little too

far with breaking the rules and when he when he got out when they kind of drove

him out after he did the big interview where he said hey we're not gonna win

they went and drilled down into his camps and looked at the things that he

had going on there said oh he was allowing this to happen you're allowing

this to happen so he left himself a little bit vulnerable by breaking the

rules a little bit too much so the rule to learn from that is I don't do things

that people can hold over you and for me the things that people can hold over

from you are things where you can't stand up and say yes that's what I did

mmm yes that's what I did hey my guys didn't

hadn't had a good meal in four weeks they've been in the field for three of

those weeks and when they came out guess what I I figured out a way to get some

steak and I took it from the rear and I had it flown up using milites in our

helicopters and I've had it yep that's what I did and if you wanna you want to

drop the hammer on me for that got it mm-hmm

now if you do that that's cool but there's some things we break the rules

where maybe you wouldn't be able to stand up tall and proud and say this is

what I did in his why I did it so you want to be careful that you don't

do things that will allow people to hold things over your head and for me things

that are things like that are things that you can't stand up with your chest

out and say this is what I did and this is why I do I know it wasn't within the

regulations this is what I did this is why I do it and if I get fired because

of that understood check now here's where you get a little here's where we

can we can question hack for sure let me ask you this if hack would have because

okay so he didn't play the game at the end he didn't play the game he went on

an interview and said hey we're not gonna win the war not the way we're

fighting we're not gonna win the war within a few weeks he was driven out of

the army he didn't play the game at that moment

right so let me ask you this if he would have played the game just a little bit

just look we need to change our strategy if we're you know I mean if you would

have just and then he would have stayed in and then he would have perhaps got a

promotion and got perhaps gotten to a position where he actually had influence

over the way the war was being fought if he had done that would he have been

better off would he have been able to better help the situation because I

don't know once they drove him out it's not like that interview well I don't

know we'd have to check the check the historical sort of results of that

interview it certainly started to sway public opinion and maybe that you know

maybe in his mind hey I need to tell everyone what's going on so we can get

out of here right so maybe maybe that was the intention maybe that was the

result maybe that helped shut down the war eventually but maybe if he would

have played continue to play the game he could have gotten to a position where he

had more even more influence and could have changed the way the war was being

fought I don't know I'm sure we could have a long debate about that but that's

as a leader something that you are going to have to weigh out all the time and

there's situations where and actually breaking news today general mattis just

put in his resignation for being Secretary of Defense so is that's what I

have to talk about that when I get a little more information on is that him

saying look I it's gonna be better for me to make this statement by leaving mmm

or would he have been better off staying there where he can at least still have a

massive amount of influence because he's the Secretary of Defense we'll have to

drill down on that one that's a that's a good question both those are good

questions and the bottom line is if you haven't read about face read it and

learn from a guy named colonel david hackworth

next question next question so the answer that question was sort of another

question kind of a question you get asked yourself yes and that's a question

and I've talked about this where if I tell you echo hey echo I want you to do

this mission I want you to do this way take your platoon and go do it and you

disagree with what I'm telling you mmm and you just say hey boss I don't want

to do it that way and I said hey you shut up and do what I told you to do and

you go you know what you can fire me but I'm not doing it I go okay fine you're

fired and I get knucklehead over here who's a yes-man it comes in and I tell

him to go do the mission where I told him to do it and he goes and doesn't

gets everyone killed mmm-hmm would it have been better off if you said okay

boss I get it I I'll do it your way here's some things I'd really like to

not do and you go no I said no shut up and then you take your guys you mitigate

everything that you can actually there's an example of this in Band of Brothers

where major winners is being told hey send a reconnaissance element across the

river again tonight mm-hmm and he doesn't want to do it the the war's

almost over they had taken some casualties I think the night before when

they did the same type of operation and he just says got it boss and then the

guys go and they sit in the they pretend to go out but they really just sit in

the basement of a building on their side of the river

mm-hm and then later on they say yup we went we came back we didn't find

anything okay cool there's a perfect example hmm

imagine if if major winners dick winners was like we're not doing it and now

you're getting an ego contest with the colonel whose idea oh yes you are no

we're not okay fine you're fired let me get knucklehead over here who's

gonna do what I told him to do who's a total yes-man and now we take that risk

and guys get killed so so who is it there's a there's dick winters played

the game he played the game so he could still have that influence and power and

and still protect his guys can get complex yeah it's it's very that's why

the leadership is hard yes that's it's weird though because when you say it's

complex when you say leadership is hard at the same time like you if you're a

principle human being and you have principles and you know what's right and

you're doing the right thing for the right reason the decisions are actually

usually a little easier clear coolly clearer yeah they might not be

easy but they're clearer like I know what I'm supposed to do here I got it

yeah I got I'm gonna figure this one out yeah and this I think applies to to most

scenarios where like if you think of the big picture where if you're like hey I'm

gonna consider myself after everything is gonna be said and done you know it

kind of goes along with what you said like oh can you stand it up and if you

consider okay look back you're gonna there cuz it's gonna become a point

where you're gonna look back on this and you're gonna feel the way you're gonna

feel right now but later on how are you gonna feel about like how you handled it

you know what decision you made in has anything to tell kids - yeah would you

if you're if you're at a party or you're wherever and something's going on would

you be proud to stand up and be hey here was the situation yeah and I this is

what I did and this is why I did it well if you can't maybe you should

really reconsider what your actions are gonna be no man because a lot of the

times shoots where she's a kid as an adult - a lot of the time it's like

they're literally the opposite decision you know like so if it's one of those

like go along with the crowd kind of scenarios you know or a psycho that it's

easy to go along there and when you're kids especially when it involves

drinking and stuff sometimes is there's really no consequence you know whatever

you did something dumb no one gets hurt or dies or nothing like that but every

once in a while there is but so it's like it makes it harder because you

don't like when you go do something I don't dumb I don't know jump off a

bridge I know something drink and drive or whatever and no one dies or knowing

nothing big happens it sort of reinforces that maybe it might be okay

you know you may be able to slide with this behavior a little bit you know yeah

but at the end of the day you know yeah if you can clearly see that big picture

where in the future you're gonna be looking back on how you handled it yeah

here's another thing same concept I used to tell I told my guys was you just

might as well act like CNN is recording what you're doing in it right if you

want to act like an idiot guess what it's gonna be on CNN because someone's

got a camera somewhere around there and you might as well be saying that today

as a kid as a teenager you might as well be saying yep this is this

is the next viral video this is my 15 minutes of fame is gonna be me doing

whatever I'm doing right here yeah yeah gotta watch out for that learn from hack

next question Junko I struggle with receiving banter from other guys banter

okay I'm naturally a sensitive guy which lends myself to take normal smack talk

from other guys personally I'm trying to get after it I wake up early I work out

eat healthy work pretty hard but still seem to have some deep-seated

insecurities which flare up when guys give me stick I have some bloody good

mates and I want to get to the point where I can take smack talk for what it

is and even give a bit of stick back to the guys what can I do to help this

here's one thing that you can try to get into your brain and this is one of those

things that's hard to get into your brain and it's even harder to actually

get it your brain and functionally use this thought here's the thought the more

okay if you're if you're paranoid about something if you're insecure about

something the more you let things bother you the more insecure you will appear

mm-hmm but let me say it again the more you let things bother you the

more insecure you're going to appear and the worse whatever that thing that

you're worried about whatever that thing that makes you feel insecure the worse

it's going to appear to everyone else so if you got a big nose and you're

embarrassed because you've got a big nose and every time someone says

something about your big nose you get mad and you get offended that big nose

it glows even bigger so think about that if there's something that bothers you

and you let it be known and you let it bother you divorce it's gonna get and

and also think about this another thing that will help these are things I'm

trying to help helped sort of smooth the edges of

insecurity here's another one people even though you think you really

think they are and it's kind of egotistical to think this but we all do

it people aren't sitting around and thinking about you and your weaknesses

they're not sitting around and thinking about you and your weaknesses they're

not like that's your ego telling you that so don't sit there and think

everyone's looking at your big nose all the time they don't care they got their

other problems they got their own life going on they don't care about your big

nose you know what makes them care about it when they know if they say something

you it bothers you oh yeah that's the first thing they're gonna think when

they see you again oh here comes a good time for some fun and here's another

thing if you want to kind of mitigate that man they do it do it mark doesn't

weigh the warrior kid when Uncle Jake says hey if you're getting made fun of

isn't any way the word kid calling plate face yeah say mark oh you got around

this guy Nathan James is telling mark oh you got a round face you look like plate

causing plate face that's his insult as he insults him all the time it bothers

him he's looking in the mirror go away lets it bother him and Uncle Jake says

hey go go make fun of yourself and he finally gets a chance he does a there

you know a class and they have to do a self portrait and he draws himself as a

plate a plate face and when the kid that's been making fun of it sees it he

laughs and then guess what doesn't make fun of him anymore about it because he

realizes it doesn't bother and they kind of bond a little bit they kind of bond

exactly what he's going for in this question that is yeah yeah so

you got him any see it's this is what that's why I said it's hard to do this

because when you're insecure about your big nose or you're insecure about your

big ears or whatever and you let people know that you just think it's in your

brain you think if you say something that's gonna be remorse it won't get

worse yeah might get worse for an uptick for a second right it might you make fun

of yourself you know people oh yeah that's right you notice that you do it

yeah then it'll kind of no one really cares and that's why in the teams in the

teams you never let anyone know that something bothers you or if they know it

bothers you you're gonna hear about it for

that's just gonna be how is the way it's gonna be and what that means the polar

opposite of that or the flip side of that is it's not fun to harass some it's

not fun to harass someone about something that doesn't bother them it's

not even fun yeah right it's not fun why would you harass someone when they

don't get it you don't even get a rise out of him yeah it's not fun you just

leave that thing you look for something else yeah so poke a little fun at

yourself these guys are gonna back off because

they're bored if you show no reaction and like you said that that kind of

self-deprecating humor will form a little bond

yeah you can give a little stick back to the guys if you started giving stick the

guys be ready to take it back though yeah they're gonna escalate yeah and the

that's just uh I mean I grew up with two brothers mm-hmm one twin brother and

that's like like that's literally the foundation of our relationship is just

you tease the other guy about something let everything like you he can come in

with a new shirt on that's a seal platoon yeah like there they will be

like oh sure you know like that's not even something to you somewhere they

sell men's shirts where you bought that yeah yeah whatever

it's Lear that's it's so bad to the point where one um when when I got with

my current life when we're when we started dating or whatever like it's

just habit you know like even you like same thing you know like you'll you'll

give me crap I'll give you him whatever but it's so common that I do it to hurt

you oh yeah yeah and you know at first she's like oh what like what why are you

teasing me so much like you're because I know her even before we were together

right no were four gears actually and he's like I kind of knowing you know

he's like teases or whatever and I had it's like real it put yourself in check

yeah because that's because that is so so much of how guys do it yeah you know

hundred percent great I've told this story before one I got when I was going

to college I was around team guys all day and I started doing the team guy

thing with my wife she's like hey I'm not in the team's so you can be quiet

now when I was like wow she's right and I don't even realize it because that's

just you know all day long you show up at a you show up in the platoon space

and his verbal sparring yes as soon as you walked through the door somebody's

gonna say something they're gonna bring it and what's interesting is how he's

how he's like I want to get to the point where you know he can Spector with thing

is I would agree with this probably even 110 percent which is hard to agree a

hundred percent but I thank you this way it's probably stronger than him like you

ever been around someone who like you just can't really joke around with like

they'll tease someone and try to like to make them you know specially I don't

know I'm good or whatever but um the but if you're around someone who like can't

really take it you can't joke around with them it's like men want that guy to

be their man I wish he just wasn't you know I'm not mad but I just I don't

wanna hang around with that guy you don't want to be that guy no so even if

like its first like let's say okay I'm this guy right here the worst is someone

that can dish it out but can't take it yeah but yeah that is the worst it's I

don't I would the only reason I wouldn't say he's the worth is what if he's

dishing it out and he can't take it it's kind of you get a payoff of teasing the

guy I'm saying true it let's say he doesn't dish it out let's say it's just

a guy you just can't joke around with this like man you're making me

uncomfortable kind of thing you know but if this guy cuz you what's your point

if it's yeah if float is annoying when people can't take it oh yeah and you

make a joke and they get all fired up and then they're like actually mad

right yeah that's that is that's well that's how you end up with people that

aren't really your friends or your friends yes exactly right so but yes yes

so you get there man hey I say get there in at first just and you kind of made it

really clear to me how you know when you make a change or something it's not

going to change going full speed you know what do you say blow drag it's not

gonna be like they're at it for especially with this kind of stuff if

you if you already know you're insecure yeah which is a big step ahead by the

way some people there I'm not insecure and meanwhile they're creating it they

know it but they just don't admit it yeah so just got you know so but you're

gonna feel it man when they call you bit you know whatever they're calling you

whatever you're gonna sort of feel it on the inside still but just don't behave

you know in a way just like I don't know I don't know what to do this plenty of

things to do but yeah I mean you do want to get there 100% yeah

Jack next question Chuck sorry how do you deal with ultimatums from customers

bosses etc that are unrealistic due to the nature of the situation and the

ultimatum what I'm gonna do with ultimatums is I am going to tell the

truth about the situation to them but first I'm gonna tell the truth about the

situation to myself because you got a look at the situation instead of

yourself is this truly unattainable like truly unattainable and and sometimes

even though it seems truly unattainable but then when you actually think about

it you realize oh I could attain this I can make this happen I'm gonna have to

sacrifice whatever to make it happen I'm gonna have to too it's gonna cost me or

the team or the company something in order to make an app like oh you want

that done you want that you want that project done by you know the 15th cool

will get it done but here's what we're not gonna be able to do or here's what

I'm not gonna be able to do and I'm also gonna make sure that I pressure test the

ultimatum against me giving the absolute full measure of effort right like wow if

I go a hundred and ten percent right not even a hundred percent beyond you didn't

give it everything you can is it achievable because a lot of times people

who Lutz an altimeter can't make it well as a member of a team

I want people's attitude to be like you know what we're gonna do it we're gonna

get it done no one else be able to do this but we're gonna do it watch that's

that's I like saying that sometimes watch watch I used to say watch me work

yeah where I got it from some so then okay so now you truly you tell yourself

the truth about the situation you figure out that there's truly under no

circumstances this is possible then it's my time to

tell them the truth which is like listen and I'll get my data together I'll get

my information together I'll explain to them what you know what why I can't I'm

not gonna be able to physically get this done it's just physically not possible

and then you know what the shortfalls are gonna be now and once I explain that

to them if they're if they're completely unwavering because if you explain

everything and you put your data together and you say look the bottom

line is to do two to assemble this many pieces by our best two people on the

team it takes them an hour each and you want us to assemble 14 of them in three

hours it is not possible for us to do that mmm in the union if you gave me

more people doesn't matter they know how to do that so it can't be done I need at

least whatever six hours with those whatever whatever it is if they're

unwilling to to waver on the ultimatum at all like no go you need to get it

done you need to get done well then what I'm gonna do okay I'm gonna try my

hardest I'm gonna buckle down I'm gonna do my best I'm gonna see how much how

close I can get to achieving the goal I'm gonna have fun I'm gonna go so hard

that it's gonna get nuts like we're gonna get it done and then when if we

fall short which we will because I figured out there's no physical humanly

possible way to make this happen then what I'm gonna do is I will go to them

and I'll explain the things that I am going to do differently next time in

order to meet their goals right let me say listen you know what I should have

asked you earlier if this was a possible thing and I should have had a back-up

plan so here's what I'm putting in a place now to make sure this doesn't

happen again or hey I am going to need more manpower so that if we run into

this again I've got the people it's my fault for not staffing us up correctly

or I need to pay more attention to what's happening in the future so that I

can have a better aware I have better awareness of when this type of situation

will unfold so I can have my team prepared for it or these complexities

that happened I didn't explain to that explained them to you well enough

and so if you understood if I do a better job of making you understand the

difficulties of making this happen hopefully you'll realize that there's no

that's more time as needed so I'm not gonna go in there and throw up my arms

and see I told you so you were stupid I was right because then that's just

sabotage to now they don't believe you anyways yeah now when you say we

couldn't get it done see like I told you I told you we need

more time and they're like yeah of course you know you you went into it

think you're gonna fail and guess what a self-fulfilling prophecy and a good job

yeah good job you proved yourself to be right loser demoted and that's what I do

up and down the chain by the way you know ultimatums can come up and down the

chain of command hold the line do your best that's what you do yeah

that seems and tell the truth it all starts with telling the truth yourself

yeah and then to your people that your chart customer yeah you know client I

want this foundation poured by such and such a date hey week we will do our best

here's the shortfalls you know whatever yeah that's the way it is yeah and

that's a big on their like we're kind of learn this from you where it's because

you can like to tell you like oh hey I can't this can't be done like you kind

of get to the point in your mind where you're like we both know it can be done

but you know given my current risk and sleep schedule and you know I got this

show I like to watch it you know it's like that kind of situation so it it

kind of shapes up to be like that you know where it's like we both know and I

don't know you know like if there's a boss who's like just grinding someone

into the ground okay that's a whole different scenario but yeah at the end

of the day like if you're truthful and it's like hey get this done or you're

fired kind of thing and then you start with the truth that you say you'd be

like can I get it done and then you really think let's say like you were

gonna die or I don't know you could get it done yeah a lot of the time I'm

nothing I'll attempt of course of course the amount of times in my

naval career let's call it when I was in the Navy that guys said to me like we

can't do it I can't even remember times like cuz guys guys just be like yeah

yeah they wouldn't be like run no Jocko I be like hey look here's what we gotta

get done ya think we can do it and they'd be like cuz we're about to go get

some but yeah you know obviously the situation some situations are more like

more serious you know like you're not gonna yeah you know but yeah that

telling the truth thing tell the truth yeah I do speak from a position of

luxury where I have the truth reflected at me pretty accurately on a pretty

regular basis so I'm not saying it's that easy to tell the truth but if you

just try our try genuine you gotta be genuine right genuinely be like yes this

is true about myself do it check next question question for the next podcast

is your wife disciplined how do you navigate a potential mismatch between

you two what about when family non discipline costs you unexpected time and

energy taking from your goals family non discipline what like my family's not

being disciplined yeah not on board or whatever not on board with the program

my wife is she runs a tight ship and is disciplined in a little bit of a

different way than me then she's not the same as me and if that were to cause

some kind of a conflict between us well then that's my fault for not

communicating with her and allowing her to understand my perspective and

understanding her perspective so for instance what what's the situation right

oh my wife wants me you know she wants to spend time with me in the morning

whatever right way to wake up early work out before she's awake you work no it's

not her fault it's not her fault it's my fault

well what about when oh I really want to eat dinner with you at night okay cool

I'll eat dinner with you and I'll stay up later at night so that I can get my

work done and that's fine you go to bed that's not that's not that's not my

response but that's not your responsibility

that's my responsibility it's not your responsibility to mold your life around

my whole life right that's not that's that's not the way it is and by the way

when the family is doing something that is taking away what does he say my

energy taking away my energy and taking away my time then I fix that problem and

when I say that I fixed the problem I don't mean I fix them do you I don't

mean that I impose my discipline on them I might involve some adjustments or some

attempts to get adjustments but I'm not but this really simple I don't blame my

family when things don't go right I couldn't work out today because my kid

was sick my daughter spilled the milk and I was like hey this is the same this

is just about ownership like if you just want to blame your family when you're

weak or you make a mistake or you didn't organize or you didn't explain to people

correctly then that's the way it is I can say this to your family is not you

your family is not you they aren't on your program that's not their that's not

their deal hmm hey if they're on it great that's cool my family's not all on

my program that's not the way it works mmm you impose oh that's fun the whistle

where's that get you you oh you wanna you want to impose your program on

everyone in your family what are they going to do what it's the same thing

that happens with any team if you start imposing your strict discipline on them

cool you can get them to do what you want to do at that moment guess what

they do as soon as they get the opportunity to rebel against you they

about you get a mutiny you get a kid that's rebellious beyond the norm that's

doing thing that's actually gonna gonna really reject you so you gotta don't

blame your family fix the problem you know who you have control over you you

know if control you don't have control over your nine-year-old kid you might

think you do but you don't you got to make enough control over your wife to

just make her you know get in the game oh you want it you want to stay on the

program you want to cook whatever 14 chicken breasts on a Sunday night so you

got to a day during the week honey make it happen no honey don't make that

happen if you are a good leader and you explain what your goals are and you get

her on board with the program mm then yeah guess what she's doing on Sunday

night helping you cook some chicken breasts for the week yeah

but this is just like anything else man this is just like any other leadership

situation you want to blame the team when something's going wrong that's not

gonna get you a solution you need to take ownership of the problem you need

to get the problem solved and when I say get the problem solved you

this doesn't mean impose your will on the team that means you need to lead the

team and there's a big difference mm-hmm so get some yeah yeah and by the way the

better just like anything else just like Hackworth the better relationship that

you build with your wife and with your kids

guess what the more flexibility you have the more the leeway they give you the

worse relationship you build with your wife and kids the less flexible and the

less leeway and the less chicken breast you're gonna have cook for you that's

two they're not in the game with you yeah so build a relationship I know that

might sound like like whoa well we're married so we have relationship build a

relationship make them understand where you're coming from make them understand

what the strategic goals are yeah make them understand

just like in a leadership situation make sure they understand

how the strategic goals that you're trying to achieve for yourself will then

come all the way back down and impact them in a positive way because by the

way if you're doing things strategically or help you that are gonna screw over

the rest of the team or in this case family guess what you're not gonna get

support for those goals because they're not helping out the team if you're doing

it for yourself and yourself only that's problematic yeah so if you're hey I want

to work out I want to get you know I want to work out I want to change you

Jitsu every day okay well how do i benefit from that yeah honey yeah okay

well let me tell you how here's my plan in six years you know I'm a purple belt

right now it's six years I'm gonna get my black belt and when I get my black

belt we're gonna open a school and when I open a school guess what we're gonna

do all day we're gonna teach digits we're gonna hang out at our gym or to

have a good time that's the strategic goal I need you in the game with me

right now that's totally different then our trade I'm a man yeah don't keep me

yeah they don't keep me from this well yeah in that depending on who you are

obviously but I would even say that's the US speaking from my own experience

that's even over saying it really like let's say you take jiu-jitsu or working

out or whatever yeah yeah yeah you know like that you know do that but I get I

get the example for sure so you say something much more simple okay easier

way more babe just say hey this this this part of my life even if it's new

it's a new I know our family's chaotic you need my help with the kids and

they'll be like but hey this this sort of this means a lot to me and it makes

me feel good makes me you know a happy person or whatever kid can me and you

can we make this work you know can we can we does what hey you know how you

like this other thing sure yeah I want to support you doing that here's where I

need support right yeah this thing puts a smile on my face yeah you want me

smiling around here you that's what and people I'm sure someone's gonna bring up

the fact that there were times when I was in the games and I would come home

from work at 7:30 at night I'd pick up my gym bag and drop off my my work bag

and I just walk I'd go hang on I'm gonna train and there was a few times where

she did not want me to go train tears in her eyes you've gotta be kidding me

you've been gone all week you've been gone for two weeks you come home at 7:30

and you're gonna go train instead of eating dinner with us

I was like yep that the reason I bring that up because I know someone's gonna

bring up that's not good leadership that's not me being cool that's not me

building the relationship that's me moving in the other direction yeah so

that's not what I'm saying to do but if you come home hey look here's the deal

here's what's going on here's why I you know what I've got a I come home from

work I got a lot of stuff in my brain I'm in

a bad mood when I come home and I don't want to be in a bad mood around you

don't aliyah bad mood around the kids I'm gonna go train for an hour when I

come back I'm gonna have a smile on my face watch what boom amen and and that's

actually my wife eventually told me like oh when you don't train you're not nice

to be around not that I was intentionally going on you could teach a

no but you just have the UH you don't you don't have that release

yeah yeah it's that that is a real thing for sure I mean it's manageable

everyone's different I think obviously but I wouldn't you can even say

something even more because that's a hard one to sell sometimes to some

people to be like hey I'll be happier you know then they'll be like well or

except for that I'll be happier mains will be happier yeah and you got it

you're right though you got a bar you got a give and take right you got to say

okay what do you what can I do for you exactly right that's that's what it is

be like hey this means a lot to me you know to end usually you know in a

relationship like that they care if something means something your husband

and wife or whatever like that's not nothing that's something you know look

if you if the if you're a husband and you say this do do so it means a lot to

me therefore you need to sacrifice your

whole thing to accommodate it you can do that but it's not nothing so you just

wait as a leader you can't have the team sacrifice everything is very evening

yeah yeah either I do a good job on this mission I'm gonna get promoted you know

or hey if we do a good job with this product where I'm gonna make more money

it's more from my bottom profitability for our shareholders no

one cares the frontline doesn't care about profitability for the general

doesn't must they understand how it relates back to them yeah so family

doesn't care about you training jiu-jitsu unless they realize how it's

gonna come back to you so what you do is you tell they're like hey just can't can

we make this work and actually whatever however this gets in the way of us you

know like whatever like I want to just in general make that up to you some way

you know like what can you what can I do for you like I said or what do you want

to do something all right you listen let's do this so we can both kind of

have something fun come with me if you want but hey I don't don't don't just

automatically expect your wife to loved you just do like ya loved you do to

unfortunately unfortunat goes for everyone you know most it's possible

possible yeah yeah but I'm saying you know you it's like how you saying like

make it make you gotta accommodate it you know sweetie if you're doing like a

workout let's say and it's your thing right like they don't work out you know

and that's my thing whatever you get so I think that differ one cuz working out

is like you can kind of do that whenever yeah yeah but jiu-jitsu is like if you

don't be so train that some people yeah yeah you know so yeah man if in constant

communication to by the way like you you know cuz after a while it's like you to

again like don't know the kids kind of need help with the homework and I'm so

on with this other family stuff you know kind of thing but if you're constantly

communicating and then she'll tell you hey do you mind not going on this day

because of this and you're like okay me going this specific day is that more

important than what the help that they need with homework you know and you can

accurately kind of navigate your way through your new situation you know but

yeah you gotta keep talking on that one because some people they think oh I can

go dude it's enough and I want to say nothing I'm just rolling out under every

circle you know it doesn't work like that sometimes don't don't be like me in

that sense you don't be like taco you're probably well my wife is very

understanding yeah so that's yeah my wife probably

would have murdered me like rightfully so like killed me as a crime next

question we'd love to hear your thoughts on the

dichotomy of honest self-expression versus normal face and or passion versus

discipline if you caught up on all the podcast normal

faces a game I used to play with my kids where they would have to keep an

expressionless face or what I called the normal face and you I would line up my

kids and they would have to keep that face and then if they changed their

expression anyway I would hit them in the head with a rip the inside cardboard

roll of a thing of wrapping paper and or I had eventually made like foam pieces

for it because they were a little bit more durable and you could hit really

hard and it would not hurt so anyways I know it sounds like you should call to

child services on me but it's fun game to play because as you hit one kid it

makes the other kids laugh and then you end up hitting them all and everyone's

laughing it's fun so and there's also a pragmatic reason to do it because it

teaches people to control their emotions and there are times there are many times

where you have to learn to control your emotions unless kids if you learn to

control your emotions it's gonna be beneficial for you in many ways what

does that mean that you should keep a normal face all the time never show

emotions no it's not like that at all there's like everything else there's a

dichotomy that you have to balance if your kid wins a wrestling match

you should be happy and great and smile and yeah high five right mmm that's cool

if you bite into a amazing piece of prime rib that your wife cooked for you

then you should raise your fist in the air yes my wife the first time she ever

cooked prime rib she she and she we didn't know this but she has a talent

she you know she cooks dry chicken prime rib she knocks it out of the park first

time she ever cooked prime rib and I took my ID smelled amazing I was like oh

this is I took my first bite I looked at her and I looked up at her and I said I

want to read that redo our vows for marriage renew the vows so yes um you

know scenarios like that yeah you want to show your emotions and

if here's something if your team slacks off and if you fail the mission you fail

the task of course you're gonna own it but you might you know you might want to

show a little anger about what happened so everyone knows like oh who's chuckle

doesn't know him to get mad and he's mad yes and we really did something bad and

you know even though your brayer on yourself like I can't believe I let this

down you know what I mean like you show a little bit that people go okay so

they're you know social most you if you get bad and well if you give them news

that that you know you've got a friend that died we know that's you've got to

let those emotions out there's all kinds of situations where emotions are not

only acceptable but they're needed and they're required and in fact if you

don't have emotions in those situations that's horrible you need to have them

not only as a person as a human being you need to let out your emotion

sometimes but as a leader if you don't show any emotions at all no one's gonna

follow you there's no connection between you and the people on your team and if

you ever if you just sit there and think about people that you've worked for that

didn't have show emotions you have no connection with them you don't care

about them you'll leave you won't go the extra mile to get the job done so you

have to show emotions but of course there are many times in life in the

world where showing your emotions are gonna have a negative impact on your

situation you're you get you give up the takedown in a jujitsu competition mm-hmm

and you show it in your face that person just thinks that spoke to you right you

don't show any emotion their boss tells you're getting stuck with the

underperforming team show any emotion right don't don't oh man mmm cool don't

do that but hey what about this there's a good one boss is giving you feedback

that you don't agree with roll your eyes I mean the the heavy sigh the clenched

teeth as you're trying to listen with this person you mean respecting me

telling you what's that gonna get you I'm not gonna get you anything then

showing that negative emotion there you need to keep normal face

that situation your kids doing something that's annoying is trying to test your

patience and they're just trying to piss you off don't let them keep it in check

get told to go to the other line in DMV after you been waiting for an hour one

don't freak out don't show any motions got it here's

here's another one we already talked about this one your friends are poking

front of you because you missed a shot at the range or you got lost on a land

navigation course or whatever get all mad don't get frustrated

don't show any motion you know they make fun of your haircut they make fun of

your accent they make fun or whatever don't show motions don't freak out

that's the other balance now there are also times where you might have to force

yourself to show some emotion just to get the point across right your kid

hasn't listened to you after five or six violations hmm you might have to show

some anger or they'd or they do something that's gonna get him hurt

right you've got to show some emotion so that they realize that was real but

flying off the temper and lying off the handle and losing your tempers it almost

never does you any good so yeah you have to be balanced in order to be balanced

you have to be in control and in order being control you have to detach from

your emotion so you can control your emotions and not let your emotions

control you I think we already talked about this one part before we're like

you know like with your kids or whatever and you're you fly off the handle not

fly off the handle but you you show emotion you raise your voice and yell at

them because this one is important this is less than that I'm teaching you

obviously didn't get it before would your thing you can't do that every

single time you know every single lesson like okay oh he'll is effective when I

raise my voice let me just raise my voice now right logically let me die if

that if that is what induces their compliance let me just do that Brett

doesn't work that way because after a while I like out brats all just don't

noise you know so yeah you gotta be like normal yeah yeah or yeah just be like

normal face no face no face everything you know and then like

one time use it it's like that what do you call them there's this video game I

used to play it's like you could just press the button you blow up everybody

anyway long story but yeah don't use it all the time is what I'm saying just use

it like sparingly you're saying oh yeah judiciously Coase was good to know

yourself next question I'm in college and I'm working towards going to OCS

after I graduate I work a food service job I was trying to teach a 17 year old

at work why she shouldn't have fast cleaning a fryer I said because of

unmitigated daily discipline in all things that includes cleaning the fire

she still didn't quite get it I didn't say to her that I make the I make the

fryer spotless because if I can't manage to clean the fryer how can I expect

myself to lead people in the military it's so facto war because I didn't think

that I didn't think that was appropriate to say to that a 17 year old girl I try

to lead by example but I'm not sure that is enough how can I best explain or show

my younger co-workers why they should have automated mitigated daily

discipline in all things when she when the stakes are only a fryer and not

lives okay let's see this is what kind of in the same vein on

some stuff tonight which is good mmm right it's good first of all because

unmitigated daily discipline and all things should be first and foremost

applied to you not not everyone else around you let's start with yourself

imposing discipline on other people is not leadership it's just an author

authoritarian person barking orders so to answer your question well first of

all read if you haven't read the book at the dichotomy of leadership you might

want to check that one out there's a couple chapters you could focus on one

of them is called resolute but not overbearing one of them is called

disciplined but not rigid one of them's called hold people accountable but don't

hold their hands and this is pretty much why we had to write the dichotomy of

leadership because you're out there good on you trying to take extreme ownership

and that's great but you're not you're not paying attention to the dichotomy of

leadership so let me let me break it down for you a little bit more clearly

and then you can go read the book as well which will help you you say that

the stakes are only a clean friar and not lives and you're right lives are not

at stake and neither really is the functionality of the fire itself because

it doesn't have to be completely spotless and in fact if you're trying to

keep it completely spotless it might actually waste time that she could be

doing something that's more important like prepping the potatoes or washing

her hands to keep the food sanitary so you need to think about that how truly

important like when you say on MIT when I say because I say this all time and I

apologize for throwing you a little bit too far in one direction unmitigated

daily discipline in all things there's no there's no departure from that right

that's what it is there's no departure for that but here's the deal if you were

in the military and you got spun up about little things that don't really

matter you are wasting your leadership capital and when something in actually

important it's what you were just talking about echo

when something actually important comes up your troops aren't gonna listen to

you because they don't know what anything or they don't know what's

important what's not because you say that everything is important like hey

why do I need to stay on watch why do I need to stay awake during watch that's

not any more important to you than whether I have a stain on my shirt

because you're freaking out about everything so so how do I know what's

what now here's the deal you can go too far in the other direction you can let

people do whatever they want they completely lack discipline and the

little things do matter the little things do matter but you gotta remember

they only matter a little and if you waste your time and you waste your

leadership and you waste your energy on things that don't matter things that

matter very little then you won't be able to lead your team when it really

counts what happens is it's a slippery slide it's a slope it's a it's it's a

slippery slope and if you let something slide then you let something else slide

then you let something else side eventually got no discipline so you have

to be careful of that but at the same time it's the other direction what you

end up in in the other direction if you if you impose unmitigated daily

discipline in all things you're gonna end up like um here's a movie reference

Eko Charles Animal House sure have you seen it

yes you know okay so you don't remember Niedermayer the ROTC guy that's yelling

at everyone you're worthless and weak he's like that he's a guy that's just

barking and going crazy and that's a comical example but I'll tell you what

you want a real example a real a real good example that you can check out once

again go and watch the first episode of the Band of Brothers series and check

out captain Sobel the company commander of Easy Company he is hardcore and he

has he imposes absolute unmitigated discipline and all things on his whole

company he holds the line hmm Oh dirty weapon

no no Liberty for you mmm pass revoked rust on your knife passed

revoked uniform out a uniform creases in your boots their creases in your pants I

pass revoked oh that guy's doing it he's doing that unmitigated discipline in all

things and guess what happens to him he gets fired his troops hate to him mm-hmm

he's worried about things that don't matter

dick winners totally squared away worries about things that are important

and as a individual and if you remember I don't even know if they show this in

Menna brothers but as an individual imposing discipline on himself guess

what he's doing during the Battle of the Bulge bowel bulge middle the winter

snowed in don't have winter gear they're freezing they're dying

what's winters doing in the morning he's up and he's shaving he's getting up and

he's shaving his battalion commander cuz I was like bro are you sure he need a

shave he's okay just hold in line so that's

why we wrote the dichotomy leadership this stuff is a balance and you have to

learn to balance you don't want to end up going and ending up like captain

Sobel and I hope everybody that's has that tendency to want to control things

and they want to use discipline and they want to use unmitigated daily discipline

in all things you want to use that as your slogan to beat people down

go watch the first episode of Band of Brothers and get your act together

yeah the fright that reminded me of when you hmm

we're talking about your gym floor you know yeah no you don't I mean sure you

don't want the you don't want a bag and your dirty clothes and socks and shoes

all over the floor while you worked out but at this for a reason yeah same way

the whole reason you got to clean the Flyers or the fryer for a reason you

know so you know what the other reason is I'm not as familiar with fryers but I

don't work at Wendy's like I did I can tell you that the external the external

cleanliness of the fryer is not a big deal

like you said do you want it to be cake - with grease where it's a fire hazard

No yeah but guess what it's a functional item that you're using all day there's

gonna be some spots on it and if I'm freaking out about that guess what I got

somebody that's not washing their hands or even worse I got someone that's

intentionally sabotaging the food so we get bad reviews

now we're going out of business yeah or whatever yeah

so it's essentially like hey man identify they use the the optimal use of

the fryer and let's target that as like the right way to clean it kind of thing

you know and that's sort of it like don't you don't have to sweep your gym

floor and mop it and make sure it you can see your face and then I'm getting

more chalk on that thing in 23 hours yeah 22 hours right it makes no

difference yeah - why do I have a gym floor you have the gym floor so I can

drop weights and walk that's it kind of thing not so you know I can I don't know

be super discipline wasting my time mopping it and you know all this stuff

because I'm unmitigated daily disciplined in all things you know mmm

functionality you have to uphold imagine how many hours of my life I would have

thrown away if I was mopping cleaning sweeping and vacuuming my gym floor

every day when I got it would take as long as my workout or take probably 20

minutes I guess yeah so there's there's what almost two hours a week to a little

over two hours a week gone gone you think I got two hours a week think about

what two hours two hours is like a massive amount of time yeah that's a

that's a good two hours is a huge amount of time unless give that away

you own a commercial gym then you want to mop that floor because it adds to the

functionality I'm getting members yeah you're gonna they're gonna bum you're

gonna you the floor is gonna be clean yep but guess what

here's go to the extreme hey we just cleaned that floor don't walk on it shut

down you know because we just mopped it it's like no yeah you just mopped it

we're gonna use it yeah so it's kind at the end of the day it's kind of like

what unmitigated daily discipline in all things that what that are functional

that are functional for sure that are are for yourself for put that on

yourself you put that on yourself and here's what

here's you really want to take this to the next level

yes be disciplined in how you impose this

on people don't just let it run wild do you have to have discipline in it that's

the way it is yeah yeah it kind of does some paint that picture how you're every

time I get these questions it's like I'm so happy we wrote the dichotomy

leadership because there's the answer yeah that's the answer the answer is

this all this is a dichotomy everything is there and people don't want it to be

an economy because it's dichotomies are complex dichotomies are hard dichotomies

take it takes skill to learn to balance and it takes awareness of the situation

yeah it's hard it's so much easier to say oh you just impose your discipline

and make everyone do you want to do mmm you can't do that you'll end up with a

mutiny my second platoon that went when we had a mutiny we worked for a guy that

made us do everything his way mm-hmm my way or the highway guess what didn't

work unique it was a highway but not for us for him yeah and not a bad guy it

wasn't a bad guy wouldn't have bad intentions mm-hmm but that's where this

guy is heading he's had an OCS and if he keeps with that attitude he's gonna end

up in those situations it's beautiful I'm so glad he asked this question

mm-hmm because I'm glad he asked his question because it's not his fault he's

listening to what I said and I didn't communicate it well enough so now he

asked a great question and now he can take a much much better approach a much

more balanced approach in his leadership yeah like flying a kite Kenna your kite

I had flown a kite but what this has nothing to do with fun no but the

fundamental principle right you know yeah Noel depends on what kind of kite I

get it but you know time with the two handles and the two strings you know you

gotta see I'm saying you got to kind of pull one and let one go a little bit and

then it depends on the wind you know it depends on how strong the wind is and

you gotta pull curl let block out from telling you to fly kite nine just flew

on like maybe like you know five six seven weeks ago it's good windy day code

by the way next question as a leader do you ever confide in anyone or seek

counsel from anyone or do you just wrestle with

issues within yourself and try to figure things out on your own another really

good question and I do both of course I try and figure out things on

my own but here's the little secret is it a secret it's not really a secret

because I'm about to tell everyone but it's something that I wouldn't really

talk about because just something I do would sink what we do when I'm figuring

things out on my own at the same time I seek counsel they said seek counsel from

the the trusted teammates that I have or peers or superiors or or subordinates

that I trust but when I counsel them when I when I seek counsel when I get

asked for feedback a while I'm trying to figure out things on my own I actually

keep those thoughts to myself in the beginning right I let other people tell

me what their ideas are first I want to hear what they come up with because if

and if somebody comes up with a good plan we're going with it like if it's

gray you know what that's a pretty good plan we'll go with that because as I've

said many times I prefer to use one of my subordinates plans one of my

subordinates plan over mine I would rather elite use my subordinates

plan rather than mine as long as it's tactically sound because then they they

believe in their plan right in if it's not tactically sound yep I give them a

little nudge to make some Corrections and still use their plan because I want

them to use their solutions in there Francis so that way like I said they

have ownership of the plan and when they're coming up with a plan guess

what's gonna happen they're gonna get too close to it they're gonna do what I

talked about in that opening story which is they're gonna they're gonna be at low

altitude they're gonna be staring at it right in the face and I'm gonna be

allowed to remain detached and remain at altitude so I have a better perspective

of the overall plan than they do and that ends up making me look like a

tactical genius which is awesome so so I guess this is the secret this is the

trick or whatever don't talk so much don't talk so much don't feel the need

don't feel the need is something you have to resist as a leader as a person

that wants to be a leader yeah they Foley system about people aspiring

leaders right if you're an aspiring leader don't feel like you're the person

that has to always come up with a plan or come up with a solution even when you

are the leader don't feel like you're that guy in fact it's better to not do

that it's better just to to think and to just listen to what people are saying

and watch their plans come out and get shot down and get reformulated and be

improved and if you hadn't said anything yet guess what the longer you don't say

anything the more people are gonna listen when you actually open your mouth

so just kind of keep your mouth shut now here's this is a little bit

different cause we're talking about like a plan right a strategy or something

what if it's something political within your team you know what I mean then what

do you do what I do is the same thing like I will think I will listen I will

discuss things with people and gather intelligence from them I'll ask them

some probing questions but I'm not gonna divulge what my position is because

number one that will influence them they will make them react and I don't want to

influence anyone or make them react until I'm gonna be able to influence

them and get them to react and act the way that I want them that's gonna

benefit the team so I'm gonna ask some custom questions

hey what do you think about what he thinks going on with Jimmy is he he

seems to be active is he okay mmm-hmm I'll ask you I'll ask him I'll

ask Mike I'll ask Bill I'll ask Jennifer wolf

I'll find out what's going on son Oh Jennifer and Bill they say something a

little bit different okay see I'm gonna gather the political perspectives and

listen I'm gonna let things unfold I'm going to observe and relax and detach

and listen and think and calculate that's what I do and dichotomy if

something needs to happen and I have to be decisive I'm

gonna make a decision we're gonna go with it

mmm I'm gonna bomb us put it out there so oddly enough as a leader don't talk

so much I know that seems crazy hmm the more you talk the less people listen

what about in like everyday stuff I guess maybe this wouldn't really apply

to as a leader but maybe like as a person you know like like you uh you

know come fight you know like I'll have a problem in it'll be like hey let me

get your advice whatever about something that obviously didn't feel

yeah like appropriate like just ask all my friends kind of thing you know like

do you ever do that

no you just mainly think about it usually well what I would do is you know

I like I do it I what I just said I would do I'd be like hey man what's

going on with this you know now I guess if you were see you when you come and

ask me something you're asking me something you always ask me about

something I'm not a part of in any way yeah so it's different so yeah if it's

like that if it's something I'm completely if something if there's

someone that's completely outside this situation yeah I'll say hey this is

what's going on you know this what's going on here we had this happen I got

this situation and just yeah for sure I'll do that yes so that is that is good

but but if it's within the team then I generally just won't come out and ask

like hey what do you know I want to change this and said I'll be like hey

what do you what would you change about you know what I mean yeah ask them what

they think first yes you might have to make some adjustments I come in and like

echo we're changing the way we record this thing now here's what's happening

yeah and you're like okay and you're listening and the first thing you say to

me is like oh that doesn't make any sense yeah now I think now I'm an idiot

especially when you say well here's that here's why it won't work Jocko boom you

lay out three things instead if I was like hey man what would you think about

this issue that were having what solutions do you think we could do to

solve that mm-hmm and all of a sudden I get to listen to

your ideas and by the way when you come up with one of those ideas and one of

them sounds pretty good to me guess what we're doing that one now who's got

ownership of that idea yeah now who's all fired up to implement it you do yeah

and I didn't waste any leadership in fact I gained leadership capital because

now you're like man chuckles are you trust me dude

yeah really cool he's letting me run this yeah yeah and as speaking from

person who doesn't necessarily well it doesn't seem like I necessarily get that

big of a payoff to have that out to like I'm running this you know like in there

I don't know for whatever reason didn't I never felt like that was a big thing

to me to be the guy running it but I don't know maybe it is maybe my

subconscious because I know that you do that to me and I'm that's why it's

actually kind of funny because you don't do it in big with big

things necessarily you know maybe maybe you will whatever but most the time it's

just some little teeth small thing and like oh yeah you know just totally fall

you're not falling for it I guess it's a good tactic but now that how you just

fully just illustrate it and mean why should know this I do know this really

that you do that sort of thing it's not a bad thing no I'm not smelling you over

oh it's absolutely perfect yeah I'm not I'm actually it's actually beneficial to

you yeah you're actually actually are running things ya know and if I come and

say hey we're you know hey what do you think kind of table we should get with

them podcast or what you know you know what do you think what you think would

be the best lighting system you know like I know what I think that's the see

that's the thing I don't really divulge isn't you know I know what I think yeah

and you know what though which I know I understand but by the way the table

thing that I tried with on that one didn't work didn't work no I feel a

little bit actually I failed because I should have put much clearer parameters

around the table scenario yeah for those either don't know what we're talking

about which is no one in the world except for us too if we had we got a

different table for our for our recording studio which is right at this

moment being expanded and but when they're still in the small recording

studio I figure why we needed a new tables because the other one was too big

no we're adding an camera okay we're adding another camera

and possible guests so so a hey man you know go grab a table and the one the

table that I had gotten in the past let's face it it was it was legit echo

goes and gets a table I don't know if that thing costs $48 but it wasn't worth

it was Wiggly and small and weak and anyways that's an example where I didn't

do a good job and it's also an example of occasionally your your vision isn't

aligned like my vision normally you and I have very lined vision about something

you know swell when it comes to the technical nature of what the podcast the

table we weren't on I wanted to bought that table ever well I would have bought

that table for like a like a prop to be used in a one scene that but well okay

so I'll admit I think I don't know if I told you this but I'll admit that the

thing is you probably when you got your table you probably went somewhere and

was like yeah that's the table you felt it and was like yeah I can imagine in

your eyeball and I actually ordered it online but okay I I'd say I have more

even though I know you worked for a moving company yes nonetheless I think I

have more I'm more worldly when it comes to Friday hey that's a cool table and

that that's the dimension yeah yeah when it came in it's the old story you know

it's like oh it looked good in the picture you know kind of thing that when

it shows up is like yeah a screen the picture and it's only $39

she lost the other table we had was a thousand bucks yeah yeah it wasn't a

fatty one question extra put a minimum price yeah just to ensure quality rice

to ensure some kind of quality yeah no anyway we'll do the point is yes when

you give somebody you let it be their idea you keep your ideas to yourself I

am not trying secretive but I'm not trying to be all

secretive I look at it tell this person because eventually my idea is if it

needs to come out it comes out hopefully it doesn't come out hopefully it never

needs to come out because my team comes up with a great plan and I can just be

quiet and they can go execute it that's my goal

yeah occasionally they can't find a solution and it's like hey man okay hey

guys and then maybe you don't do I won't even divulge my whole idea I'll

say hey well what about you know what about this what about an idea like this

oh yeah that's not bad man when you see someone get a good idea they get so

happy yes it's so rewarding yeah and so you want to give them that

gift and the way you do that is by let them come up with your own ideas we're

just gonna make sure that they have oral the experience with furniture

all right well there you go and I dig it and cuz you know it's not really even

about that idea it's more about okay we need a solution to this problem I don't

care what they you know there's a bunch of potential solutions kind of thing and

yeah you might have one in your head but you don't want to just start saying

Berger just throwing it around as the one yeah and also yes you're right also

when you divulge your idea guess what happens to everyone else's ideas

especially when you're in a leadership position when you're at a leadership

position and you divulge your idea everyone kind of gravitates towards that

idea as being the best if you keep your idea to yourself you let the true growth

of ideas develop things come out and people are just trying to say like oh

great idea Jocko yeah even even if they're not like a kiss-ass but you just

you just put an idea in their head and they can't see it a different way yeah

you know and even if they do you put them in a position where now they have

to shut down your idea not a big deal but it's still an added element that you

have to like you got to kind of put them in as far as that position goes yeah

rather than you you'll just kind of open up the floor it's kind of like back in

you know who who has something to say kind of kind of live the atmosphere you

know and we all can you know throw around ideas and the best one comes up

there you go thanks brain oh man okay the better table mixer I promise

next question as I get ready to graduate from college I would appreciate your

input on the following question I've always loved to take part in a variety

of projects and I have ended up in in a leadership position in multiple

organizations be be it in student VC firm the student

body my professional fraternity etc in a way this is this was natural to me it's

about extreme ownership right I loved what I was doing it shouldn't just

slough off that that phrase it's not extreme ownership right right yeah

that's how it should've been okay okay all this stuff is about extreme

ownership right can't be that hard right kind of kind of course see motor ship

right okay I loved what I was doing I had a vision where to take things and I

was chosen to lead so I felt that I was doing the right thing recently though

I've started to feel overwhelmed and feel that my productivity has diminished

by being in a managerial position it seems harder to see the direct output of

my work but it's as easy it's as easy as always to see what's not working I don't

want to be let go of any projects because I'll still love to make love to

take ownership of them he says I don't want to be let go it says I don't want

to let go of any projects because I still love to take ownership of oh yes

yes yes love yes fiying symptoms oh yeah you like the word ownership that's like

a like a really I definitely like the word ownership and as you also know I

also like another word that's that cata me you know because it gets seen

violations here all right well they either either way this guy he he doesn't

want to let go of any projects because I still love to take ownership of them and

leave these organizations but I think I'm no longer able to handle this much

how do you balance those things yeah so there is a chapter in the dichotomy

leadership called own it all but that's not the title of the chapter the title

of chapter continues mmm this the title the chapters own it all

, but empower others mm-hmm and it sounds like this individual who's

getting after it for sure props getting after leadership position

multiple organizations going hard taking ownership very cool but it sounds like

he needs to lean more towards decentralized command because just

because you take ownership of things doesn't mean you're supposed to do

everything that you take ownership of it doesn't it doesn't actually doesn't work

this what you need individual is you need subordinate leaders inside these

multiple organizations that you're in charge of that you trust and you got to

let them run with the broad guidance and the mission the broad guidance of the

mission and with your commander's intent that that's how you're gonna work us so

for instance when I was in charge of training on the west coast I was

responsible for a lot of stuff for land warfare for maritime operations dive

operations air operations close quarters combat urban warfare training mobility

training heavy weapons defensive tactics combat leadership and every other block

for guys that are getting ready to deploy to Iraq and Afghanistan and on

top of those tactical things I'm in charge I'm actually also in charge of

safety and actually also in charge of maintenance and actually also in charge

of the administration of the command that's a lot of stuff to be running

right I know that Holmes is in charge of you know the VC firm and the student

body that's that stuff too this is a lot of stuff could I

personally manage and conduct all of those things that I was in charge of not

even close not even close not you you talk about feeling overwhelmed you

wouldn't last 15 minutes if you tried to be the person that made every decision

and all those different divisions that were inside of the Training Command

so I couldn't manage and run them all myself but I had great leaders that I

trusted that were going to make things happen and I gave them the broad

guidance of what we were trying to do what they're part of the mission was the

parameters that they were allowed to work within and then go get some and

it's the same thing to ask you to commander to house task unit commander

got two platoons plus you got a squad of augmentees plus you got Seabees and

you've got an Intel fusing cell you got interrogators and you got radio

communications crew and you got the IT crew and you got you've got the whole

Tactical Operations Center that you're running and it's the same thing

run all that no no human can run all that so what do you do you have

subordinate leaders that have the broad guidance they understand what the

mission is they understand the commander's intent they go forward and

get after it and they they know the parameters and sometimes they have

issues and when they have issues you can step in and you give them a hand or

sometimes they get a little Auerbach's you've got to put them back in the box

but it's the same thing even right right now I got a chillon front I got the

podcast I got the store got the supplements the apparel the online

training coming out we got the tea the real estate the gym you get the list

goes on then I can't I can't run all those things but I got people leading

those things and running those things and I could do the same thing it's like

hey here's the guidance here's the mission here's the commander's intent

here's the sanity check on something here's the parameters we're trying to

move within and then go go and get some so if you do well with decentralized

command you can handle a lot now could you possibly bite off more than you can

chew yeah you could get involved in so many things that you don't even have

time to monitor the situations at all and you don't have time to tell when

people are getting out of their zone or out of the parameters that they're

allowed to work within or you don't have time to help when if something goes

sideways you don't have these so you could get there and that will happen

especially quickly if you have failed to train and mentor and give directions and

give guidance to the leaders that you have and that are actually on the front

lines running things so if that's part of it now the other part of it is you