Practice English Speaking&Listening with: Carla Tofano talks to artist & art historian, Iluá Hauck da Silva - Metralla Rosa Ep 14
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welcome everyone to Metralla Rosa. I'm here next to Iluá Huack da Silva...Uak...
Hauak...oh my god...how is the pronunciation? Hauck...HAuck...Iluá Hauck da Silva
and it's a great, great pleasure for me... it really means a lot. I particularly
love her visions - clear and beautiful and the way she combines this very
conceptual approach and at the same time, everything she does look so figurative.
I love the fact that in general she's quite into...I would say obsessed...about the
human condition - the body, the anatomy...
but everything she does also relates to history...
...christianity, theology, symbolisms...so it is quite interesting.
Um... Iluá ...I'm not gonna say that surname again! Is from Brazil, but she has been
living in Britain for most of her life probably more time...more years in Britain...
...in the UK than in Brazil, but we could say that she is as equally Brazilian as British.
Thank you so much for joining us today, it's really really a great pleasure - likewise -
And one of the things I would like to start talking with you about
is that ability you have to bring something very universal
...quite...
magnificent, in terms of meaning
to things really peculiar, particular and not necessarily...coming from the detail
to the...to the whole...is something that you feel in any of your artworks
especially when...when you try to depict a little bit...what it means. Why...
why a heart? Why a brain? Why a piece of body?
Has it always been like that? Yeah I've always been interested in how we can
communicate broader existential concepts through particular signifiers
and of course the signifiers for the human condition are...well...
some of them are body parts and
internal organs so...
why a heart? Well, it could be any particular heart
but nevertheless, it functions as a signifier for love, for life...we always
associate the image of the heart with love...
Um...or the image of the brain with
rationality, intelligence or rational intelligence...
...Um...and in other instances...
So, for example my piece "Despair", which has very agonised
- body expression - you know, the tense body expression
well, it is a particular body...
but nevertheless it communicates and articulates an idea of despair as a
general human experience, so anyone could identify with that sentiment
even though it is a particular body.
So...the connection with human parts
has always been there? It's not something that came after your graduation from...
...Goldsmiths school? Can you, can you remember your first artwork or your
first memory related with you being an artist?
Yes I can...
...so, I actually remember things from when I was a toddler, like say,
when I was 18 months old...and I remember when I first started interacting with images and
art books, you know, I was very very little and...my first experience of producing
a work of art that dealt, you know, with this kind of particular and commenting
broader, I was still in school and you know it's...
... I was learning dadaism at the time and I just, you know, of course, did a very
Duchampian ready made thing and, you know,all these bits and bobs of, you know,
consumerist society and it was a comment, commentary on capitalism as a whole, so
they, you know, commenting on the bigger picture through the particular,
yes, it's been with me for a long time, yeah. It's always been there.
And...it is interesting especially with this Art Residency that you did for
The Optometrist College of London in London because there, you actually really
had the opportunity to not just go in from the particular, the peculiar, to the universal,
but also through your own story even if you...
...as we were talking before this interview started,
you have been using your own body, not because you are
being especially obsessed about the self reference, but more because you are the
model you have most at hand...
...in that case I feel that you...in the case of
"Pathos Ocularis", the exhibition that is actually still
at the College Optometrists, the Museum here in London,
you had the opportunity to go from...to a
real self reference, in a way that was more emotional than any time before
Well it's interesting that you say...you refer to it as an opportunity...thank you for that!
Thank you for that...because...it was actually the most difficult
body of work I've ever produced... I'm...I don't make work about myself, you know,
as you said, I do use my body as a model for my work...A) because I have worked
as a life model...I... you know...the poses that I require are painful you're
holding poses that require so much tension - Like that "Despair" sculpture we were...
You have to stay still. It's painful, it's tiring and I'm the artist, I know I will
be dedicated and committed to holding that pose for as long as it's necessary
now it has nothing to do with my emotional history or my pain whereas the
body of work for The College of Optometrists required...well...it didn't
require me to...but the whole history...
...meant that it made sense for me to
explore my own eye pathology because it was just
it was just a "non coincidence" so
I had a very serious illness, you know, I mean it could have killed me
before modern day medicine, I would have died... - yeah -
...and then I was..I got the residency...
...within half an hour of starting my residency, starting the research at their
library, I came across an article in a book, written by the very doctor who
looked after me, about the pathology I had. And I told the curator Neil:
"Oh, look at this coincidence" and "this is what I had", and he was the one who said,
"Wow, this is very unusual, it's a very unusual illness in this day and age, why don't you explore that?"
...and, it sounds all exciting and good on the face of it,
but really, when it came to making the work
- No, I can imagine - as I say well it was really really difficult
- How horrid it was - Exactly! Really, really horrible!
um...I know, I had never actually, just like, cried in my studio trying to make work, and also
...I was kind of resisting it a lot, you know... But, I think that was an opportunity because...because...
okay, I understand that you are an artist that seems to relate to very rational
processes very, very...edgy kind of mental process, and in that sense you have
everything under control...and it's actually your territory...
...but in this opportunity you have to bring that to the body and feel it, and I think that's
why that artwork is so, so beautiful and so amazing, especially the
Santa Lucia that - by the way you told me that today is - Santa Lucia's Day, yes -
Wow, and I don't believe in casualties...it really has to mean something...but we will
get there...Please, because we are talking here about things that you know, I know
but not everyone knows...so let's start to talk...tell this story from the beginning.
Ok. In 2015 you had an illness...ok...I wanted to...
...if you can, if you can remember, how was the moment you started feeling ill and
which ones were the symptoms? Well, so actually it started as a normal flu...
...in January...and...and...I wouldn't get better and then I actually got worse
and I had a, you know, severe ear infection...it was really, really, painful
um and then...I got better, but not entirely better, and I was not well
and I had all this pains in my head...um...and we're now in March and I was still not well...
...and...one day I woke up and I would see everything double with this eye - wow -
so I'm seeing two glasses, two hands, everything...and I thought, well, if this persists I'm going to
Moorfields Hospital...and so I did. Was it super scary?
Um... Or where you fine?
It wasn't...it's scary...but...I knew I was really not well...
...and there were things that, say...you know um...people don't understand also when you're ill because I
didn't look very ill...I'm like, you know, it's not like I looked horrific...um...
But you knew? Yes, and there were things that, say, for example...oh...
...you know...lets go and do this thing...that, I don't know, in Richmond Park...
...and I was like, actually I'm not well enough
to go for a long walk...um...
So instinctively you were very connected with your illness? Instinctively...yeah...
Yeah I knew that it was just like... What were your symptoms?
Yeah...and at Moorfields...um...when they ask you, so...
...you're serious, you're not lying? You really see everything double? I say 'yes'
I they're like, 'right...you need to go up to neurology like, now...um...
You said in another interview that the nurse actually asked you, 'Are you being serious?'
you have so many you know cool crazy little that don't go there just to be
just to have the attention that they need yeah maybe may exalt but how can
you make something like that well I I also I guess because for the medically
started themselves know if they are all of us of a face a case that is really
unusual he's also a shock for them for them now see medica we start fooling oh
my god you know cuz he's not nice for everyone even for them you know if they
see that someone is suffering for something really serious but anyway so
so I went to the neurology did all these tests and a few days later I got a call
from the hospital well you days late a few days later
so all those days you were watching things doubled and you know there are
other complications in a process but I'll keep it in a sense you know you
think you never sound very tragic or drama you don't make a drama out of it
but it was well it was um I don't don't see why I would make a tells you Barrett
their stories there are different approaches and goals but these people
that they really make everything sounds even bigger than the EDS and in your
case it is very big and you try to always minimize
them the importance is that a characteristic of your personality
definitely in that situation you were acting very very in an English way okay
yes I well also Venus is trying to keep the conversation clear because really
then the expression of of the emotional pain is a network even though I know I
realize also that the works by right heart is in a sense that you know my my
self portraits are some Lucy and which communicates you know the unis so you
know have a double I and I you know I look up quite ridiculous and so you look
at it and I didn't make myself look pretty in that work no particularly ill
either you know there's no sense of drama this it's kind of um there's an
age to esto he says in that event well and also you know I a little bit funny
let's face it you know I look a bit a bit hilarious well I think so you know I
didn't try and make myself look particularly I did idealized um but
that's because I'm the reason for defaulting to some Lucy it's because
before we had medication and say you would go and pray for some Lucy and you
had an image of some Lucy and pray for her and you would be in this position
where you realize that whatever it is that you're going through it's not as
bad as martyrdom mm-hmm you know you haven't had your eyes gorged out um and
you're gonna be cured so there's that in that sense that you know the the image
of the Saints mitigates and Suzi's your suffering and that was the thing
although it's and and the owners that are hard actually
it was getting to a stage that can be related to the I models you know so the
pathologist they are represented in museum because no one really or very
rarely like in my case someone ends up with an infection in their skull yeah I
was on a break off is spread into my brain how do you know
after being so close to them you have been studying this why a lot you know
why that happened to you yeah I'm sexually in itself yes so my
immune system was very very low and also the shape of my skull means that the
infection could travel from my ear into my head and the bone got affected the
base of this equation here okay yeah here here mean alright alright I thought
it was yeah yeah yeah and animals only brink I was praying to my brain so
that's really advanced and in this kind of instance that really you know there
was no going back before antibiotics but coming back to to the moment you were
called by the neurologist and they said no you need to come to the hospital
because you you need a special care a special attention what happened there so
I you know they said all we we think you have a bit of a ice Co inflammation and
in my father is a doctor and I thought oh there they are really toning this now
he that pack a bag come to the hostel you you need to be hostile for a few
days and it might just be a bit of an inflammation as I well that's very in
Congress but okay so I did and he was funny because I had to tell my father
that I was being hospitalized basically you know I delete into hospital
and he couldn't quite believe it he couldn't say goodbye to me and I was
like I need to go home and so I knew I was not well I knew that
it was potentially really quite serious but okay so you you were told that it
could be it could end up in a variation but it didn't yes yeah so basically I
was told that if after 12 hours of intravenous antibiotics and steroids the
internal swelling didn't come down then they would have to cut my mouse void
which is this bone here open and operate on my head and but luckily the
medication worked really really well and that was not necessary and if you
remember your self prayin in the moment because I know maybe for choice we don't
choose to it but sometimes when under real pressure or when we are very scared
my mom was a naughty remember myself Preah it's interesting you mentioned
that because you know the way I wasn't brought up a strict Catholic my parents
my father was not not practicing Catholic well being a scientist also
kind of but then my grandparents in like my grandmother's you know I had to pray
with it you know so I didn't have to but you know the mother there was like okay
we pray in the morning with prayin evening that's something that that we
did and is you know this interesting kind of you default to thoughts of
prayer and you know inevitably you know in moments like that you you do inquire
about you know the divine and the miracle but not you know not just in in
moments of you know tragedy but also say when you know I rock climbing and you
know there's nothing like you know top of a mountain food getting
the feeling of the miracle you do feel that new a sense of the divine
possibility so it's interesting that both in moments of kind of uh and
exacerbated you know happiness happiness or an intense experience in nature or
you know which is the outer world you know the expansion you know the infinity
of everything of you know the universe or diametrically the opposite in that
moment of personal tragedy and the journey inwards you know the connection
is virtually the same you know the the questioning of you know the divine the
miracle of existence both call into question
and so definitely is one of the reasons here why also working with some Lucy
yeah without very very pertinent yeah it means something for your life a moment
of before and after in terms of that realization of we as human beings in the
last era have been quiet disconnected with the idea of divinity because we
have made our our paths on earth related more with them what we can see what we
can experience what we can hold what we can understand and slowly slowly I feel
we have been culturally believing that part of of even of knowledge beside do
you feel in that regard before and after no I don't feel before and after in that
regard because I guess being an artist and being very sensitive to everything
around and inside me those you know always is
kind of very heightened sense of making the most of life making the most of
everything never taking anything for granted you seen beauty in everything
that's that's always been the case I've never not considered things divine you
know I think you know what always a difference a you know between a flower
in a table you know still could be equally sacred equally divine or not
depending on point of view but because I was he I was ill for a whole year I
finally only totally recovered was already like February 2016 that's the
moment you started working again pretty much I worked very late so I
actually even almost ill I did manage to exhibit I didn't really yeah Wow somehow
Wow yeah um I was I was ill I was not well I was very debilitated and you know
working on kind of a battery saving vote
but I guess I can't live without making art or being emotionally engaged so I
don't know I just it happened a miracle yeah exactly and um but yes I finally
managed to really go back to work was you know in 2016 and so then for the
after then yeah there was things that was very shy and very hesitant about you
know going forwards with and I was like come on you know you you could have died
just hmm you know if you hear I know it's a no but right to the place where
you want to exhibit it asks oh there was another
so you it was enough those a change it will never change those that the impulse
you know that the kind of getting a lift from the bad experience that was just
like come on go for it yeah you know you have nothing to lose
kind of thing so yeah I has that brought good results I guess yeah
so let's talk about this exhibition pathos ocularis yes and how the
collection with the college started how did it say that happened so what
happened was that um a friend of mine mm-hmm is an occasional art collector
Adrienne William and he's a fabulous ghost Jimmy a and he asking me to make
an ice sculpture for him after he'd seen some of my work and he he knew about
your situation oh yeah we were we were very good friend
friends yeah exactly he was when I made you yeah and I said you you know funny
enough eyes require a glass technique that I haven't studied so I know how to
cast the glass and fuse glass and other things but eyes required technique that
I unfortunately haven't I studied so I assume listen I need to do some research
and think how I can work away around this your favorites you could do some
research well but but also I am very pedantic
about techniques you know technical problems I love Rizzoli titled technical
problems I spent ages I could have guessed it's just so pleasurable right
okay there is an existing show philosophical concepts with but then
they're all these you know yeah my new technical problems and I adore meditate
see on Kevin resolving them you know how is the mood gonna be made what materials
this the the the dialogue between the concepts and the technique and the
technical problems and materials so I leave your visa so I when I said to my
friend said well there is the museum the British art association museum I'm gonna
go and look at your what they have and he said I want to come with you because
the reason why he want to scope just because he loves noise so we went
together and because the museum was open to the public for visitations any time
it's required that you book an appointment with the curator and so we
did and the curator knew asked us why you here and Adrian said oh it was an
artist and I've commissioned her to make me a glass eye and we're here to do some
research and you said oh really she's an artist that's interesting you here to do
research that evening Neil was very excited about our visit I'm curious I'm
curious yes and so he asked me um could you show
me some of your work and I did and it was one of the most reassuring into some
lovely things that's ever happened that you know virtually immediately he said
Oh would you like to exhibit here like that just like that just you know really
nice really instantaneous natural response to see my work it was really
validating I cannot deny it was very wonderful and of course you know within
half second I said yes
and that also gave me gave you an amazing opportunity I guess because your
dad is a doctor um you you you were into this yes the complicated that um but so
you know the fact that then you appointed me to be to be out to see
residents and I went on this journey researching eye health in general and
then you know my own pathology and crazy Lourdes work in relation to my dad funny
you should mention it and so um even don't you know as a child I'm I I was
given basically paper and pencils here you go
you don't have anyone to look after you interchange your Sony entertainer and
and also um you know where he lived it was very close to the Medical Center
where he worked so you know literally next door sources basically we are even
about cell power you know we're told no II thought she burned very small town
okay in a countryside near - yeah yeah about an hour way for about half a day
sorry so I'm so actually very safe you know so
you've got could it just be like Anna that was a beautifully square in front
of the Medical Center this tree so I was either you know climbing the trees or
drawing and my dad's consultation room was filled up with my drawings so you
would have a thought and my dad would have be a bit more supportive of my work
and of my choices being an artist but no no really yeah I think I recently I
think he didn't get it um things for quite some time so for example and I
started making the glass hearts to begin with you know I saw I just drawing a lot
of a lot of hearts and as I you know showed the heart saying is that the
arteries wrong yeah he was watching it is from from anatolia right what well it
isn't it isn't because the reality is I knew I in special to having spent
quite a bit of time at the pathology Museum looking a specimens and drawing
you know pickled hearts and internal organs are like external features the
inner and then you know so is it what is a human knows what are human lips that's
amazing you know completely different and the same with hearts or lungs or
kidneys every ones are different which make them even interesting beautiful but
so there's no right or wrong unless of course if you draw a heart
that ends up looking like so when I started making the test pieces for the
eyes on a platter for salut see you know the the body of work and again Mina my
dad looks for the you know I sent him a picture and he stopped saying oh
interesting or what does he mean or you know just the eyes are looking in
different directions why but he of the fact that you so readily comments or
something that is not good instead of asking why have you made it like that
it's a away that's why and I always succeed you had chosen to be a doctor he
said in men see you wouldn't know these are not represented in the right way
lady for him he wanted you to the other people I think I think so yeah but I
think that's probably because from a very young age I really engage it with
his medical books with medicine general thank you well you can have those things
from a very different perspective probably the it was it because I
statically was super attractive to you yeah I was always very very visual or
always engaged you know observe things around me but both artistically
and technically so I'm for example my grandmother had quite a lot of glass
objects vases or just objects both from what I know and from Bohemia
so where is now Czech Republic and Poland and the other children and family
okay they would look at it but then you know go away
and I want to just stay with those objects how is it made
how can you get this green how do you get this gold I was just really being
engaging with her how was this made yeah process behind what is it um and also
why is there this woman with this owl and this half moon what does he mean one
thing but yes exactly yeah so the then query again already
you know how it's made so the technique and the concept what does it mean it was
I don't know I don't know why I was just always engaged with it yeah to try to
understand the why behind yeah do you always go from theory theory theory
process to making things or sometimes not run sometimes no so for example do
some works you know so I think what happen is that because I've always you
know life to studying art language and history history and philosophy were my
favorite subject in school I just just kind of you know overloading
myself with readings in looking at art III realize it's very very privileged to
have had you put in us to come to Europe twice as a teenager and of course in
very intense experiences and you of course else and aloof were the van ho ho
museum the British Museum at the age of 14 these right
experiences or at least to me what it was and and so when I started having
ideas for works of art sometimes you know a nice finished piece would just
flash in my mind and the process of understanding the idea I had also
actually retrospective yeah yeah so that was very much the case of the sculpture
made juicer you know just I had visited the Art Nouveau exhibition at the
Victoria and Albert Museum which was in the back in 1999 about three or four
times bought to catalogue couldn't have enough of reading and looking at that
catalog and some other books I'm you know after spending ages surrounding
myself with books and I was at home in a minute what if I make I mean Jews that
with this twist yeah if they already know they don't being a woman with a
snaky hair it's a brain but the curls of the brain
yeah Andy's said that that's the bring I saw up there at them at the cemetery
yeah yeah okay because okay yeah so um so and then that
was an idea that you know I had an idea and then I started tracing back the
history of why well I ended up having the idea and so it was completely
subconscious in everything that had been stored in my mind eventually could you
please explain that brain because yeah of course I think it's worth it yeah
totally the exhibition by the way was um with three or four pieces no more than
that so yeah I was three and then two drawings that hadn't been printed on
canvas yeah in a very special place and not many people have had the privilege
to exhibit there it was amazing so it was an exhibition
of my body of work called minor tools of the mind the body of work is not
finished yet because they sculptures are expensive to make they're difficult to
make Boreas expensive materials um and so the idea is that each time I manage
to finish another piece I'll then have another show in the same thread in the
same place um but the interesting process was that okay so me Jesus was
the first idea I had you know wasn't part of a body of work yet
I was 23 when I had the idea 20 years ago
and um and then from that idea I start having you know the idea or ideas that
would connect that and then I realized what this all very really related to the
darkest aspects of the human condition you know or aspects of the human
condition that we wrestle with so evil vanity superficiality or suffering and
Medusa so why I ended up having this idea in particular so of course you know
I grew up with a lot of Greek mythology my my dad used to read the Greek
mythology to me when I was little going to museums you know having visited the
British Museum Duluth when all the classical sculptures and had read so
much but then also all the glass you know the glass that I looked at as a
child and then I you know my connection exactly yes actually yes because there
was a very specific reason that I want that Medusa's to be in England at a time
and I was really really into the turn-of-the-century sort of Thunder
Sackler and I wrote essays and my bachelor's degree and then my
citation for my BAE was all about the turn of the century Vienna Freud Clint
had bit Nietzsche and Marla as well so I realized then my sculpture Medusa
it's very Freudian he's a very Freudian table totally yes yes yes I can see that
and very to meet Jesus head essay by Freud and I was actually obviously
really enjoying this process of inner cat okay everything I know about the
maze and then how the you know people in the 19th century were rethinking the
myth and the whole idea of the phone fatale but also psychology insights or
analyses that you know I was emerging as a science and so presenting Medusa as
just a human brain of course first of all well is it a
woman even though I kept the name made juicer which is a feminine name but you
look at the image and how would you know it's a female brain or male brain you're
gone no human exactly and and I'll tell you something about the work I to never
really get a chance to talk about it but so when I had the idea for this work I
had not studied glass making yet that's something you learn I learned here and
because I began having so many ideas in glass for glass then I went on to study
glass making and I made juicer was really difficult technically it was
really really difficult from the moment I began studying glass
it took me five years to understand I had to do to do to to make that piece oh
my god that that Wow yeah so you know of course crystals kind of this bizarre
coherence that um a piece which is a shape for brains
requires a lot of brain power exactly you're very
brainy process please understand what a hard to do because if you think of the
shape of the brain with a brain stem on top how do you put that on the plinks it
doesn't sit on a plane so eventually and also if you understand
casting whether it's metal or glass you know the lost wax process is it's cold
you need to end up with a negative mode with an aperture for you to either pour
the metal in or have the glass going in the mode to the cast but if you think of
the shape of the brain the only possible aperture that you
could have an AMOLED home to be the tiny bit of the brain steam you need to turn
the piece upside down and how and how did you keep the shape well well how do
you have the air going out so the the glass could go in and how could you see
inside the boat that the mold is perfect because you have all these make skin
texture inside the mold you know how could you even know that you've directs
the mold properly I mean it's just like how am I going to do this and eventually
no like actually after having made all the work cuz I actually I need to do
three open modes so you can cast three parts separate any and and then one you
can see what you're doing for each one of the modes be if anything goes wrong
we sort of you know wasting an enormous amount of materials material you can
which is expended by yes and also to fire you it all because you would need a
huge queue you take a long time is it longer than the other materials yes it
is because brass yeah because you need to cool down glass at a much slower rate
then or ceramics okay so if that had been
cast in one piece gosh that would have been more to two months maybe two and a
half months to keep the temperature even throughout the piece well because
they're so you know the discrepancy of a size so you know where the brain is that
it's large as it's quite long but the narrow switches are the kind of little
tail of the brain stem that would have been a lot hotter then I barely yeah so
casting it as a three-part also ensured that it would need to be a much easier
process but then finally to display it because I then had the idea of creating
and lost planes and the brain stem is inside the glass pane and the brain has
on top of the Pink's so then you can see the brainstem encased in the plains and
the brain Hoffs on the planks so resolving that the whole technicality
the whole process of course I really enjoyed it
I mostly thought about the sculpture every day really from yeah every day I
would you say if I was just not know doing anything I'm gonna do this
how do is this like quite obsessive in a way but really pleasure did you made
yourself then this structure where it was this play no so you're not no I'm
not higher you know people make that because you know requires glue and also
is very very heavy which is the other good reason for having needed in three
parts because I what is that our hollow it belongs to a collector a little long
full exercise so two collector they are not disclosed even their gender but they
prefer no need to not mention anything is not say anything it is doing my
bedroom but it's old and it's they're safe for
whenever they have an opportunity to come and collect
it I I guess it's a reminder a good reminder for yourself to know what you
are able to do if you want well yes but also I realized that you
know um if I wanted to be able to control make things myself I have to you
know a scale down because it's very very heavy I can't I cannot lift that piece
on my own I cannot even I can barely lift one of the hearts of the brain it's
because these purely easily it's led crystal glass is really heavy
um hence me then you know for a just thinking what is it that I can make in
my kill cuz my kiln is tiny like this and so the idea for the glass heart
which I can 100% make myself cuz me Jesus had to send to another artist who
has you know enormous kilns in a industrial scale is to do but luckily
he's a wonderful wonderful man calling Reid lovely person and he casts the work
for me the the hearts have been exhibited in Boston yes they have yes so
the hearts of actually a very interesting thing that happened with
them because I is still testing you know phase enough test piece I normally don't
do test pieces you said go for this yeah because I do
how can't afford to make a test piece if I'm a juicer you can't can't afford yes
you know makeup it has to be possible actually Bauer's that whoa whoa I
remember when I may it was like right okay ready to go ready to make this
finally and then I an exhibition of / - she appeared out of the blue and I
exhibited it you know it's finalizing making of it anyway knees
straight to the National Trust said somehow
in Hackney and from there it went straight to the Sava gardens in Windsor
out in a part of the great Windsor Park and I thought oh my god how I've pulled
this off that is the first cast no test piece and then going to prestigious
institutions you know heritage is facing with the National Trust and then the the
Crown Estate so I remember being excited really really happy but I was I'm worn
by worried because it's like I realize how how edgy that had been because if at
any stage anything had gone wrong I would have missed out on those two
exhibitions and in all these years that you have been living in London and how
has been your connection with Brazil have you still been in touch how do you
do you go there frequently how many exhibitions have you had the
opportunity to so I used to go to Brazil more often in the beginning because a
ticket to Brazil was a lot cheaper and and I I did do modeling in Brazil and I
still have some like contracts I remember my my grandmother had power
of attorney to sign contracts for me and a couple of TV ads that I did and you
know sometimes your contract expires but then they want to run the the advert
again yeah so you're gonna try and renew the contracts and you get some more
money so I actually had to do put it to go to presume more often and then that
dried out of course I moved here and then tickets to Brazil went up from 500
quid to me 2,000 pounds and I actually have only been to Brazil once in the
last seven years so I went once in 2017
three years ago and before they are turned in 2013 and before that I were
coming three times in 2011 not much not much at all I would like to go more
I would like to exhibit more in Brazil but hey I'm out of the loop but you did
an exhibition in Brazil you had an exhibition in Brazil which
one was it so I have done only one solo show in Brazil which was called
Pruneyard as you possibly know geez which means handfuls of possibilities
because I basically ie no use what I could do because of my work was here how
could I could transport work to Brazil so you know was what what was possible
yeah and I really enjoy doing that show was beautiful little Museum in Eva
cheaper Museo poverty Lima and I converted : your house and yeah I did
what I could what's it can you describe the piece he presented ai ai ai exhibit
you know I actually filled up virtually the whole museum which was like you know
quite impressive considering I don't have a studio in Brazil so I exhibited a
series called Mount decadence which is this velvet stretched on canvases and I
made all this abstract glass shapes with gold leaf in the middle so I exhibited
that body of work and also flagellation and sillies were exhibited there and
then this one room was this big installation piece called boutique
opposed very much drawing on the Praxiteles sculpture of venus of needles
or aphrodite of knidos cos as Greece so I'm in leaders in ancient Greece there
was a temple for Aphrodite and also table temple doneto and the courtesans
would worship Aphrodite and women had two children family women
would worship the meta-god fertility and art historians argue that the first
fetishized image of a woman is that is that even though the original does not
survive but there is a whole tradition of the protocol was to become known as
the boutique opposed or the Venus pudica you know so the real Venus of my life
for example is made reference from the right camera Dinah exactly which is the
classic pose that Venus referred are just covering themselves as a male oh
look her sees them bathing and they cover up yeah so that is a fetish
because of course no women would pose -
so that because they said is that contradiction between I don't want to be
seen but please watch at me well which is they are yeah but also the viewer
point of view knowing that the the woman does not want to be seen but they want
they don't want to do but actually want to look but they don't want want to see
everything except their wanting to see but know what to do then show me
everything exactly you know because it means that you don't deserve my way yeah
so all my publications very nice thing yeah exactly
and I'm not the first artist to have explored this idea tossed a Dean made
films of women bathe but what a Buddha passed about what made very conceptual
what you did is that there's actually not a there's not a no value exactly
describe this the she's a yes so my take on it was that very Duchamp Ian
ready-made and I know there's been a big wide drainpipes so because they're
widening your kind of alluded to marble but so they're completely no sculpted
there's no curves no drapery no identity no reversal of you know
forget nothing you know is that kind of a nothingness
but then I put laddered holdups on them and you dissociate laddered holdups
we've actually quite you know slutty sexuality or analyzed corrupt seeds
because their decadence and so the this juxtaposition of this kind of
nothingness with that sense of this corrupt to the bun Alliance that's what
I wanted to do and loads of them because you know the weather is a Venus Protocol
and Aphrodite each one is one carved woman that attention to detail labored
in whereas loads of pillars in of course you know the pillars and there's a
reference to the phallic symbol but in loads of them that you know is it's
nothing in particular so kind of how desires sexuality can be
sub analyzed and trivialized so which kind of stems back to this you know
fetishized know rio idealized sexuality or if the
subject the present in many of your interest in recent work yeah there's
been a shift of interesting you can't we move on but I would say from that period
is still in that frame of mind my piece veins of vanity and say it is still a
lot to that which you know I wanted to make a work of art that was about vanity
the history of representations of vanity you know Vani toss or two gorgeous
paintings of beautiful luxurious objects to criticize vanity but what they do
that they trigger in the viewer a desire to or
those objects even if it's communicated to you that that is sinful or bad or
superficial you know if you want to look at it from a secular point of view
oh that's superficial or from a Christian point of view that is sinful
and Anna for what what is it that I do that is vain very superficial that could
be cool set a scene but I can't resist doing it yeah and at the time I loved
wearing corsets like you know it could go to the supermarket more than of
course because they famously you have a very very tiny way anyway yeah so good
good motherfucker sense yeah exactly so that it led me to model to various
because those contradictions should be inside of us and we should embrace them
well it's actually good to have them because that that leaves you openly to
questions instead of making barriers and thinking that this shouldn't go with
these or that that doesn't make sense if you believe this or that and I think you
know contradictions are inherent to humans maybe I don't know in order to be
human maybe you need to be here a contradictory being but somehow the more
you I understand that we should be very consistent with our thinking morals and
ethics consistency is interests is important
but also a setting contradictions and and describing the tension between
things it's not just opening opens your point of view but foreign artists ease
it's an amazing territory because you don't have to answer the geese questions
you just have to show the tension and yes you don't actually have to provide
an answer yes I just put it out put the dash
and I think I definitely agree with you in a sense that you know recognizing
your own force unfolds is important stuff pointing your finger and just
criticizing everybody yeah and that's something that's actually you understand
from where they come why they don't go
and it's interesting cuz actually you know I I think I've managed to exhaust
that because nowadays the thought of putting on a course so it makes me time
just yes sometimes just sort of opening yeah I course it drawer and I have you
know 10 12 of them just also love very good
concentrate constricting or very very
sure yeah it's not the problem is just pussy them on exactly they don't need to
remain stationed in one of them I just I just really don't have patience for that
any more than with the attention that is another thing the attention you get they
so unwelcome and it's very interesting how people completely change their
behavior in relation to you any wearing of course it first of all they think
they can touch you yeah drives me up the wall in Ursa fight
I'm not a dog I'm not a toy but now because I'm
wearing a corset yes I have become an object and you think you can touch me
worst of all are women women all of a sudden it's like they just really want
to grab you in touch it is actually really interesting and as an exercise on
how is that giving permission to leave your that's what it is exactly and so
for example I'm courses that I really like special that I delight scholar I
will not wear out because it happened that you know and I shouldn't be in the
Leighton House Museum where you would think that you would be safe and people
just grabbing me and their hands a dirty and is a co corset get your hand so I
was gonna ask that get whatever the more a valuable piece of course you have the
in touch are they really special no this my my precious corsets are all made by
my friend 20ms she's German she lives in Berlin and she's an old old friend of
model for homage with her first catalog and she's wonderful she's a dear friend
I'm I'm her her pieces are very special up to me and this one be particular they
made I guess their indemnity measure you know she knows my dog body perfectly new
I don't even mean to get my measure sheet she knows and and but so as an
exercise you know testing how people change their behavior in relation to me
when I'm wearing a corset I have one either an old horse or a cheap course it
out and just like relax let's see what happens and inevitably people just like
touchy and it's just like it doesn't cross their mind that they're being rude
invasive they are harassing me but it's just as a test
let's do you see what happens yeah um I'm it's horrific
it's absolutely horrendous well that can give you an idea for a future have you
ever made a person as a sculpture oh yes so these things about a surgery I have
ever seen no they're hard you haven't really so um
I wanted to make a comment on vanity and actually study horse making when I had
the idea for for the piece because we had to choose a piece of text and make a
sculpture from the piece of text and I chose a census in one of my favorite
books which says the violence of your beauty and the title of an exhibition
held at the ICA in 1998 called die young stay pretty Oh amazing sounds
great I saw either violence of your beauty world courses are violent bully
beautiful die young say pretty well less wearing a
courses and um the sculpture is a cast of my back after I'd be wearing a corset
for oh yeah yes yes of course and it has all the
inventing yeah yeah and yeah yeah and it's interesting because of course
people don't understand the process of casting have said oh but it's a very
subtle is caring well that's because it's been a process of negatives and
positives all the way to glass that kind of tone down the indenting but if you
were to see my back when I took the takes it off its brutalized by the
corsets so yeah so that's you know in relation to the vanity and of course as
you're saying new your internal floor so um the inventing on my skin of course
that that brutality is a signifier for the destructiveness of vanity as an in
in word it was this analogy or you know psychological flourish whatever you want
to call it um but because the glass is so transparent and the way it's being
polished this hyper polished on the front perfection and the back is
sandblast so you can't see through the back where all the inventing is but you
can see perfectly through the front so you see it's an internal thing because
you don't see the back you see the marks of the few design from my bag I've
internalized that you see through the body and it's precisely that what I
wanted this is their wider called veins or vanity or something happens inside
it's conceptually wrong I'm how many hours were you wearing the corset to do
that how was the process so actually put that there was actually a kind of a test
piece for that and I just want to coerce it for a few hours and the cast did
about wealth for a series of reasons there was different glass and kiln but
so when I finally got II right because the process of mold making and taking
the cast of my back because he if y'all was lying on a floor
the mold mixture would flatten my point but if he's standing then the board
makes his runs down your body so you had to be able to kind of a 60 45 degrees
actually at 45 degree position I've told ya when and finally you know
that the whole piece was done and I was actually really happy with everything
because I was you know that piece I feel I really have managed to be coherent
with the concepts the piece in itself but also the properties of the material
okay because he cannot be casting bronze it will not work it can not be casting
so it actually has to be glass it has to be that kind of there's no if rationale
the Sierra Mist so you have coherent yeah exactly so there's the coherence of
the concept the form and the material so I managed to stay true to the material
to experiments of the material and the form and the concepts and that's
actually quite difficult to achieve yes you know so you're very proud of that
piece of art out that one yeah I think in terms of coherence its its
consistence man yeah yeah and you just finished we were talking when you
arrived here to - Mateus Rosa hey you just finished your master not finished
master but the glasses of the lectures of these master in theology and art or
it what was it Christianity announced so the name of the program is Christianity
in the arts but yes but it is a theology and the urns yes I would like to link
these with Brazil because somehow even if many of you
pieces are super clean I statically very clean very minimal there's also in all
of them these Victorian feeling this baroque kind of sensation but I don't
know why they always have brought that to me and I never in my life have been
in a more barak place and received and when I went to Brazil I went everywhere
bailing my nose procedure I like by bringing your bail in I said but well I
I went to all these amazing churches as I said before my mom was always an
answer is but she was Italian Bravo Catholic and she always had a
fascination for the Anthropology stick approach to and also they are also about
him Christianity yeah I think you know how can anyone not be enfold by Barack
is that base 30 and also the rituals the daily well absolutely I mean you know
Christian Catholic liturgy you know processions churches you know Oh
gorgeous yes very very seductive exactly
especially if you are attracted by all these layers of meanings because seeing
is always there but then also you are always defying saying how is it has to
be with your with your childhood and your Brazilian memories this fascination
of you for Christianity and yeah absolutely
um you know just yeah growing up in Brazil with all in a Catholic Church do
you think it would be different if you weren't being from there yeah
yeah and but I realized that a lot of my work I just kept kind of a bit you know
say things vanity it's really minimal
but then I realize that the corset marks in it all of a sudden becomes it's
eerily Boracay I get it totally and also is this you know that battle between
yeah between the external and internal way good and the bad or Eversole about
in the soul yeah yeah and I think my piece flagellation is one that you know
is the least minimal one and I did you know I worked with an Italian jeweler
danila such as Natalie it's amazing and of course being Italian here she got the
concept straightaway issue you know she really enjoyed collaborating with me and
we designed you know the rosaries to be you know that kind of sumptuous Catholic
you know in designing of the handle of the width you know the metalwork
perfectly matches the metalwork of the beads the crystal bead covers is it full
of similarities full yet my nudes a very Catholic
you know Gothic you want gothic from the Renaissance and Baroque but you know
each minut Dietl that have in your meaning in a work and that is very very
seductive to the point that you don't see what the work is about to begin with
you just seem fooled by the aesthetics of it yeah and then you take a step back
and and engage with what it is and that happens a lot you know with with works
of art in in churches in Brazil at least that's how I engage with Olivia you have
this initialled whoa oh and they
sometimes even have overwhelming sensation of God do you understand this
yes exactly but I think the the initial being whoa not understanding I he you
know that that is the different tension you know best the desired effects that
you have to kind of lose control and then it slowly start making sense of
things are you somehow all the time testing the intelligence of your viewers
you come from places so complex your train of thought is beautiful its
logical ease it's engaging is seductive but feels like okay the result okay here
is the result let's see if you get it I feel like all the time kind of tasted by
some of your beautiful pieces is that the intention yes oh I know I wouldn't
be so how does him testing beans I wasn't saying it like that but say I'm
yes I'm challenging the energy that they are very wore off I'm offering a
challenge you know just not offering something Hey look at this and you know
and I cannot deny that out of every experience I've had in my life
there's nothing more rewarding then seeing people getting get used or get
any oh yeah guessing is I'm getting lost in units of the engage with it so
something that I have done quite a lot say I envied you late to my own shows so
I don't say I'm gonna I'm the artists I just sit there quietly as if I'm working
at the execution don't say anything so for Phi then get a chance to observe
people interesting the work how they engage with the work and it's really
interesting is of course I've seen people just look at it and don't get it
and just like whatever there was but times
when I see people getting it and you see the moment when they look and they get
it and they go this is nothing like that but there's the most genuine and amazing
feedback I can ever happiness for you well yes because that tells me that I
have managed not only to offer but I've mention actually give something to the
viewer you know the page the viewer has seen something that you know viewer has
had an experience a positive or interesting experience by engaging with
my work so I'll tell you a couple of moments one with me Jesus um Cemetery
that this woman walks in she starts walking around me Jesus she's looking
and she's looking it and then she saw this makes him first please she's just
seeing a brain and then she please should read the title it's just totally
saying and you go oh my god that's brilliant
oh my god that's genius who's made this so lovely because it's going from kind
of and then did you have a conversation yeah yeah I did and that was really
lovely and the other one was despair and only of the blur and um so yes I that
was a more than one person and the particularly two people and one of them
were like tune on the artist almost made these I
said yeah I I do know the artists is bought why did you ask him because you
know when I fell to despair that's exactly why I felt and it was really
interesting because they do see that you know that represents what I felt
yeah well yes but that's what I felt yeah that's bad yeah
it's capturing the bad that's though that meant so much to me
you know so happy that they they could you know it's kind of like they could
see outside themselves what was inside themselves that all of a sudden that was
that was there in front of them and they could see they are feeling in a
different way projected on a work so of course I love it when um my work
provides a scent you know a moment of enlightenment yeah for someone so you
know I don't want to say that I test people think that but I can see why
because yes they are kind of little you know challenges there for the viewer and
you actually smile and have the sinister face on the other hand so there has the
moment senior with modulation there was a very funny exhibited in Brazil and is
very pious Catholic wearing mercy any but she that you were the same at the
same the same sure the solo show yeah okay you have to come back yeah I do
yeah I had ordered shows I mean group shows that the scholarship that you do
to another someone yeah and anyway so you know vessel of a piece that really
you know questions penance as a form of you know potential or you know attempt
on Redemption and you know it's also a poker scene is all this you know there's
all this theological questions and this woman girl she looks to the war he goes
he's being long that I don't use one of the rosaries so you know of course I can
understand what because the rosaries are really beautiful
and of course you want you your honor that you want anyone on them so I told
me you want to think about what this work is about
yes please so you know that's but that tells me a lot that belongs to someone
is one of them me I made Soo and yes
I'm always curious about that because for example now with the pathos ocularis
those pieces because you did are not residents yeah how long was it the
resident so the residency started in January the exhibition runs until May
twenty twenty and the work yes people can buy the work
people can buy the world that was I was curious to know if when you do a
residency with an institution for example of that category they were the
owners of the pieces you could use during the residence no that's not
knowing that no in this case nothing much there could be cases where you know
you do a residency in and they buy the work or they they pay you to make the
work but not annoying business but of course the work is not up for sale at
the museum because it's a museum is not a commercial art gallery but if anyone
wants to buy the work once the show is over yeah
and did it force you to somehow you look at the the conceptual tension that comes
from the fact that you are thinking about the view being an artist thinking
about the part of your body that allows you to see a things when what makes an
artist an artist is what they see how can they see what they see it's also of
course process that involves many other organs of your body but let's say that
the I have a very important significance not only as an icon of
that that sense of is there is the window your soul is what people see of
you and time they can bring you through the eye you can read the world through
the eye and also because it's related with all that situation that you suffer
in 2015 did it make you to think that oh my god I'm not here by a casualty yes so
I'm what maybe first thinks that illness my eyesight has not been the same and
that's something I actually I struggled with quite a lot so now I have you know
two pairs of glasses and you know that's a drawing so you know this is why I have
sunglasses yes do you always make things yeah the prospect of the tier rating
eyesight is is very scary and upsetting because I was looking at things yes
that's what I do and in fact is one of the pieces that I made for the
optometrist Museum it's a rare iconography of salu so I
made three pieces inspired by her and one piece is that she has eyes in a
place of this deimata moons of Christ and of course this enormous you know not
just physical sight but insights in a war you see your mind is enlightened no
Santa Moochie of course her name is lights so he's not just about what you
physically see but how you interpret and take in what you see but of course you
can interpret and digest things if you can't see properly yeah so yes of course
that's been what sort of for forefront of of my thoughts any project in the
future that you would like to share with all of us and so I think for the time
being really is just finishing my great so be you know involved in writing
a long citation and I have loads of ideas you know because the course has
been very very inspiring so yeah there'll be loads of new projects once
I've finished DMA but for now is just writing is mainly writing and that is
the essay dissertation is it about so what I am hoping to write about is how
female artists have engaged with the sacred but analytical narratives good
good luck thank you I'm not going to pronounce your surname because I'm not
gonna be told off again and I'm sure I haven't got it but thank you so much for
accepting this invitation it's been a pleasure and I we wish you the best of
luck thank you ever so much to you thank you so much
