Practice English Speaking&Listening with: #KyivNotKiev with Serhii Fursa: About Oligarchs; External Governance; and Reforms at Risk.

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Hello, world! It`s still Kyiv not Kievyour source for the updates from Ukraine!

My name is Tetiana Gaiduk, here is my friend and colleague Polina Boichuk. And we are very

pleased you joined us today, because we have something really-really special to show you.

Today we are testing a very unusual format for us and we hope that it will be a success.

In our previous episodes we emphasized a lot on the importance of the cooperation between

the IMF and Ukraine. And now we have a great news, because the cooperation will continue.

Yeah. And today we will spend some more time on the IMF questions and all the questions

around IMF and will try to sort out if this is external governance or if this very good

for Ukraine. And to do it perfectly well we invited a brilliant expert and a very good

friend of usMr Sergiy Fursa. Hello, everybody, hello girls!

And I will probably introduce you Yes, please!

Let me do this myself! Sergiy is investment banker and analyst of Dragon Capital and a

columnist, the one who we call an opinion leader. Am I right?

You`re right, but I`m not analyst in Dragon CapitalI`m fixed income sales. I used

to be analyst before Dragon Capital and for the last nine years I`m fixed income sales.

It`s important because real analysts from Dragon Capital always are jealous when somebody

else is called an analyst. Because only research, like official research can represent the name

of the company. I was trying to google you, because I was

not acquainted with you yesterday. And first of all I`d like to thank you very much that

you agreed to participate and I`m very happy to meet you in person finally. And when I

googled your name, I found that you are a blogger, an analyst, but we`ve found out that

you are not. Anyway, an opinion leader. And I`ve also found that you are often called

sorosia”. So, my question is: can you please explain, who aresorosiatato

our external foreign audience and what relationship do you have with the people who are called

sorosiata”? There is some group of people who are connected

with some oligarchs and pro-Russian parties, who try to say that Ukraine doesn`t need to

integrate to the Western society. Ukrainian oligarchs are the establishment and these

people are a part of the establishment, they become quite influential, because they have

TV-channelsmost popular TV-channelsand they have a lot of money and they produce

all these stories against Western society values. They fight with values, but you can`t

fight with values, so you fight with Soros himself. Soros is just an old guy who is about

90 years old, who lives in New York and he doesn`t give any idea what happens in Ukraine

now, because it`s too far from him, but if he googled himself in Ukrainian or Russian,

he would find out he is the most influential person in Ukraine. So, the audience of this

brandthe sorosiata brand , that could scary somebodyis, on the one hand, the

Ukrainian society, and on the otherit`s the President himself.

I`ve heard that Zelenskyy is a big fan of the conspiracy theory, so I really believe,

he mightHe might, but every taxi driver is a believer

in the conspiracy. And the mindset of Zelenskyy is very close to that of a taxi driver`s mindset.

But who are these people namelycan we say it`s anti-Soros coalition or Western external

governance? There are two big groups. One big group is

pro-Russians, pro-Russian channels, influentialsthe Opposition bloc, Medvedchuk mainly

and his TV-channel, his network and the people who were somehow connected with the government

of Yanukovych. On the other hand it`s Kolomoysky and his buddies inside the ruling party. He

was quite influential in forming the ruling party and his TV-channel is 1+1 and its main

topic is anti-Western propaganda now. Kolomoyskyy is under investigation of the Big Jury, so

if he just leaves outside the Ukrainian border, FBI will catch him and bring to the US. So,

he needs to break any relations with the Western world itself, because for him it`s the question

of his life. Because if he was caught by FBI, he would spend all his life forever in some

US jail. I can understand him. He is trying to break Ukrainian-Western cooperation and

he pushes all these Russian propaganda stories inside Ukraine. And his TV-channel is very

good at propaganda. He`s very professional. It`s a big machine with a long history

Yeah, it`s a machine Of course, of course

It`s good if we`ve started to talk about the IMF in this context, because all of these

conspiracies are of course very funny and cool, but now, when we face the narrative

that the IMF is the evil itself and this narrative is a picture of all Ukrainians as a dominative

oneit scares me much. And now we should explain to all, to people of Ukraine and you

do this very well, why the IMF isn`t that bad, as most people think it is?

It`s not about moneyit`s about reforms, to my mind. Because Ukraine should follow

its Western neighborsall these countries of the Warsaw bloc, who made these reforms

in early nineties and are a part of the European Union. Ukraine can`t do all these reforms,

like the IMF recommends, for all these 30 years, because people don`t have a political

will. First of all, the stuff recommended by the IMF is not popular. You know what happens

with Poland. All these Polish guys who made brilliant reforms in early nineties, they

are hated in the country. We need money, we need to finance budget deficit, but nobody

will give us money without the IMF support, because they do not trust us.

Yeah, because the presence of the IMF in the country, the presence itself is the factor

of comfort They do not trust Ukrainian authorities. We

did a lot of reforms for the last 5 years, but it`s always done under this Western push.

I can`t say this is external governance. I would be happy if we had any external governance,

because it would mean that we had just a governance. But now we have no governance and sorry about

thatno external governance. In that context I wanted to ask, because they

often say in the media platforms and often the President says that the IMF requires the

reforms to be implemented in Ukraine. But I think that this is the main controversy

because I suppose that`s Ukrainians who need these reforms to be done, because that`s Ukrainians

who need the quality education, that`s Ukrainians who need quality medical institutions, but

they like reverted it vice versa. They show it in the way that that`s the IMF that requires

us to do these reforms. But Ukrainians suffer from not having these

reforms, they do not understand they need these reforms, because you need to be a professional

in some field to understand what you need. It`s the main problem of Ukrainian authorities,

because they do not understand that institutions are important. They want to build roads and

think that the structures are changing. But it`s not real structural changes. The Ukrainian

President is like an average Ukrainian Like a taxi driver

Yeah, a taxi driver, usual taxi driver. He doesn`t understand what needs to be done to

change the situation. Ukrainian civil society is very week. To be honest. There is not enough

power to push our authorities to make some changes. So, our authorities look at some

ratings. Ratings do not show you any reforms, they saygive us moneyand do not ask

us to pay taxes, what Ukrainians ask from authorities. So, only one real power that

could push you to do these reforms is the IMF.

So, let`s talk about the new program of the IMF for Ukraine. Previously, we were talking

about three-year EFFExtended Financial Facility. So as we know now, we are talking

about 18-month-long stand-by program. So, what is the difference, I mean, in the concept

of cooperation. Isn`t this somehow an evidence that the IMF doesn`t trust the Ukrainian government?

That`s the reason for the shorter program or what?

I think it`s the evidence of the critical situation in the world and the corona-crisis

etc. No, there is no trust, really. But it`s not an evidence of it. Now the stand-by does

not break everything what was done for the recent 5 years. It`s the main idea of this

program and we are trying to pass to the next level of reforms we already implemented, but

in a very-veryModerate?

Yeah, very moderate way, because I think the IMF does understand that now it`s not a time

for the Ukrainian government to implement reforms, really. Because of the corona-crisis

and because of the political will. The Memorandum and all this program signed

between Ukraine and the IMF states clearly all the terms of cooperation and if I`m not

mistaken the previous programs can be put in a line due to the fact that Ukraine has

never fully fulfilled all the requirements that the IMF posted. So, what is your forecast

for the program? Will Ukraine cope with all the assignments?

I do not believe in it, really. Because again, now we really need money, really-really need

money. That`s why this Anti-Kolomoyskyy law was passed, that`s why the land reform was

passed in some way, this dodgy way again, but it was passed. I do not believe that Ukraine

could finish any program without sabotage. And what reforms are the most problematic?

And what are the stakeholders interested in their failure?

Okay, I think all reforms are now under attack. The most important reform is independence

of the National Bank. This reform was very successful. And we`ve seen this situation

with the huge world crisis, recession and stable Ukrainian national currency. It`s unbelievably

for Ukrainians. Because we` re used to it - always if you have a crisisyou have

a devaluation. Now we have no devaluation. And it`s one of the results of the banking

reform. But there is Kolomoyskyy`s interest. Kolomoyskyy is interested in taking control

of the National Bank and all other guys who account to Zelenskyylet`s print money,

let`s give credits for zero, let`s do it. That`s Petrashko?

Yeah, like Petrashko, because he represents Bakhmatiuk`s interest, another very dodgy

oligarch, who takes a lot of money from foreign investors, because it`s funnythe biggest

problem for Ukraine is Kolomoyskyy who takes money from domestic guys, mostly, yes? And

slightly from external ones. But Bakhmatiuk, he takes both 2 million dollars from international

investors and slightly from locals through his two banks. And these guys are trying to

implement the style of behavior that we had before Maidan. Let`s print money, let`s give

money loans for whatever they want and it`s good for economy. And the problem is that

the President shares such view. NABU, this independent anti-corruption institution was

implemented as a part of the IMF cooperation with Ukraine four-five years ago. And now

it really has a huge difference with any other Ukrainian special forces institutions that

are very corrupt. NABU is much-much better. They do not always provide a quality of knowledge

but we fully agree that they share values. And NABU investigated the Privat Bank case,

again. That`s why NABU is under attack from Kolomoyskyy guys and from Avakov. Privat Bank

case, Bakhmatiuk case. So big oligarchs under investigationit`s unbelievably for Ukraine

and that`s why people are attacking NABU. Do these oligarchs act separately?

You see, we have talked about sorosiata and all these guys, who share same values, so

you don`t have to have a union to do it in one way, because you are thinking in one way.

The same with oligarchs. They support each other because they have same values , but

now they have a common enemythe Western world that tries to push Ukraine to civilization.

So, these guys are afraid of it. That`s why they attack reforms.

Previously, we were talking about people like Economy Minister Petrashko who says that the

best way to go out of the crisis is to print money for example. There are other people

or those same people with the same insane ideas like, why should we declare a default.

They speak, for example, of Argentina and what can you say to these people?

Again, people who declare it, who provide such a narrative, they are working for oligarchs,

for Russians, because both of themKolomoyskyy and Russians need Ukraine`s default, because

that means no connection to the Western world. That`s the idea. They do not talk, that it`s

gonna be a heaven after default, and everybody knows that there is no economic heaven after

default. It hurts. We can see the examples of Argentina now, Lebanon is under default

now, you can see what happens in their streets. By the way, about Argentina, we have many

FB followers from Argentina, so dear guests, please tell us in the comments below about

how your lives have changed after the eighth and ninth default, about the social payments

and prices and all that stuff. That would be really very interesting to read

For the last thirty years Argentina has had already three defaults and people have a lot

of experience in defaulting, how to default it.

So could you please share your experience, because who knows why do we need it, let`s

be prepared, just in case. I believe that such a complicated topic as the IMF and Ukrainian

cooperation with the IMF is too broad to cover all the issues arising around it in such a

short time, but our interview is slowly coming to an end and I would like to say to our audience

again, that today we hosted great guest, Sergiy Fursa, investment banker, not an analyst from

Dragon Capital, but a columnist, a financial expert. So now you have to say that Kyiv not

Kiev is kind of super-project Kyiv not Kiev is a super project and we really

need this project, I`m sure, because


in Ukraine used to live in

a world, that is Ukrainian-centric. It`s a big problem,

because you don`t know what happens abroad and people who live abroad don`t have a clue

what Ukraine is. And we have to show, that yes, we leave somewhere next to Russia, but

we could be civilized and we could speak English, we have good restaurants, good nature and

we are ready to be a part of this Gold billion, we want to be a part of the civilized world.

So, I think you do a great job to show people that Ukraine is not only for drinking cheap

alcohol and having another cheap fun. Good jobwe didn`t rehearse that!

And actually I have the last probably question for you: if you were a chairman of the Board

of the IMF, would you vote for a lone for Ukraine or would you take some time to think?

Before you answer, I would like to remind youyou started negotiations with one

government and proceeded with another, the President of Ukraine is still very much connected

with oligarch Kolomoyskyy, the National Bank is still threatened, under threat of challenging

its independence, so what would be your answer? Look, if I was the head of the IMF and I dealt

only with such countries, only with such problems, because if it`s a good proper country without

such problems as mentionedyou doesn`t need the IMF. You need the IMF if you have

all this dodgy stuff. So, yes, I would sign the deal with Ukraine, but I would ask my

staff to be tough and very unbelievably I would take my money back just in one second.

So I just recommend, do not play with me and be tough.

You`d better not mess with Sergiy Fursa! Who`s the Head of the IMF!

Future Head! And a bonus question! How to spell the capital

of Ukraine correctly? KYIV!

Perfect, that`s Kyiv not Kiev! These were Polina Boichuk, Tetiana Gaiduk

and our very special guest Sergiy Fursa! Thank you very much for coming!

It was a pleasure! See you next time! From Ukraine with love!

Ahh, that would be usual, sorry, I forget. Okay, people, so stay safe, stay kind and

remember the most important thingKyiv not Kiev

From Ukraine with love! And we will not forget to put a link of Sergiy Fursa`s FB account,

so you could follow the news from Ukraine from a real expert

As we do. Thank you very much!

That`s it!

The Description of #KyivNotKiev with Serhii Fursa: About Oligarchs; External Governance; and Reforms at Risk.