Practice English Speaking&Listening with: Foreign talented student and workers in the Netherlands from abroad and Covid19.

My name is ray welcome to this video

Thank you for attending this meeting that started off by an Internet campaign

of graduated students in the Netherlands. Varsha Punj started a Facebook group

that has now almost 600 subscribers Amy Azhar is also one of the active

members and she's here today. Welcome Amy. You will share your concerns about the

current corona pandemic and its consequences to the students talented

searcher and highly skilled migrant. Also I invited professor Tesseltje de Lange who

is an expert on labor and knowledge migration at the Radboud University

in Nijmegen. Next for more practical insights I asked two befriended

immigration attorneys Mandy Janzen and Thomas van Houwelingen to comment on

the situation and perhaps give us some ready-to-use recipes for legal

workarounds I'm Julien Luscuere, also an attorney, working from Rotterdam,

and happy to host this meeting. Or must I say first: unhappy that it is necessary

to organize this conference in this difficult time for everyone, and even

more for foreign talent and contributors in the Netherlands to the Dutch society

Many of you are now watching. Welcome to this broadcast and let's find

some answers!

Amy, first tell us how has this affected you personally? - I have graduated

from Leiden University in 2019 and since that time, personally I have been trying

to find a job myself in the legal domain because that's my specification however

even he departed I had this problem that's mainly the job market was not

really welcoming to me it could have been due to language barriers could have

been due to different experiences, different culture in the work atmosphere.

However after the pandemic we faced a new issue which was not only about their

differences in the culture and their applicants but also a new phenomenon by

which the applications are being put on hold first by the requirements.

There are some privileges for us as the graduates of the Netherlands and

there are some obstacles or some more difficulties than us if the of course

during our search here we are allowed to work 40 hours per week and there is no

restriction with regard to our salary scheme as long as we are in search here

and of course we can be hired even the supermarket. However most of the problems

starts from the time that we won't extend our visas and that's the concern

of most of the members of our group and specifically you know during this time

that if they want to be hired first of all there should be a recognized sponsor.

By you know studying the law I am give you understand that they're in two

categories either they are those academic institutions like the

universities or they are for example other companies that we hire highly

skilled migrants it is an intern in fact that although those recognizes

sponsors have been through a process receive data sponsorship they still are

not quite familiar with the process of hiring graduates is what you are an

after the expression data with your visa and all of those are problems brought us

to conclude that it's not really possible within this time frame that we

have to be employed and to extend our visa and this is just you know one

aspect of the many problems that we are facing these days

Can you give an indication of how many people like you are similarly affected?

we have reached you a number of 700 who have the share concern and I assume it's

just the very beginning of let's say these collective mission we also have

the students who as you mentioned are in uncertainty and insecurity about how to

go through the study progress and how to continue their education and of course

after the graduation it could be possible that they do have sustained

Thomas you are working at one of the major immigration law

firms in the Netherlands and specialize in knowledge immigration in these

turbulent and insecure times did you notice the distress in your inbox or on

the telephone?

Well yes we we were actually asked for when the when the intelligent lockdown

started we were actually quite swamped by questions like what amy was just

addressing but also others not only students or researchers but also people

who are self-employed and I think that certain broader victories that these

times these pandemic times are already quite confusing even for anyone in the

Netherlands but being here on a residence permit and being dependent on

on universities and employers makes it even more confusing because well there

have been introduced all kinds of at hoc measures there are measures for migrants

it's just all the ie website is just mentioning leniency which is what's so

vague that people call us and ask what what does that mean with us working on

returning mean and when will they be lenient and when they will when will

they will they will they not be really so I certainly recognize what Amy is

addressing and I think it's definitely a good idea that that that we try to do

something about that -

Professor Tesseltje de Lange, you have done research under these

groups of talented workers on the internet many of them have organized

themselves but I have the feeling we are now just seeing the top of the iceberg

how many foreign students and young professionals are we talking about?

You didn't ask that in advance, but there is a study done by the European

migration network which was finished last November and I think we can put

some of the numbers on a slide right after that question for people to see

but we're talking about thousands of people international students migration

has been big business globally and is big business for Dutch higher education

institutions as well not just for the Netherlands we're talking also Europe

the European Union has specific legislation for students and also

recently implemented the the search year or at least search nine months at AU

level so you're not alone Amy in in the Netherlands there must be people in in

in Germany in France and Belgium like you struggling to find their way through

this search period that has gone into into thin air I really liked your your

remark that you're actually building a new home here and I think that is

something if you look at at the the debates on the orientation year or the

search year on attracting international students in talent the idea that you are

creating a new home for yourselves in the receiving country is not that

prominent the idea is that highly skilled migrants are moving on that you

you keep that the world is your playground your global citizen and

you'll be here to pick the cherries that you like but you'll move on if necessary

and I guess that is one of the very difficult things you're up against the

idea you're you're well trained you must have had some money somewhere in your

life to be able to make this move so in that sense you're up against a prejudice

that you're not to be pitied or otherwise so I think in your approach to

the theme it's good to realize what you're up

against and that's good that I mean you're a lawyer you're talking to

lawyers to think of what it is a real honest legal strategy and I agree with

what Thomas was just saying you know about this lenience that is vague legal

terminology and I guess asking for more position on what exactly is meant by it

that that that ISM just after many onsen is an attorney at the firm many

counselling companies and employees and complex immigration matters from that

perspective mandy did you notice increase interest or distress at your

clients okay we have people but due to the code book 19 pandemics we actually

cannot afford them anymore because we have liquidity problems how can we still

make sure that they can either save or how can we make sure that they can move

along LR even get fired and so normally it was really the market was I want

people I want them here I want the knowledge to be here and I don't want

them to go and now it's more liens to I need them to go because it can't afford

them anymore and the company who Nevers don't want

people to go because we are not as microsites economy in the Netherlands

and we need these people who studied in the Netherlands here only because of the

fact that the salary criteria for knowledge bargains are for some

education is quite steep so once somebody has studied here or has

graduated from a top 200 university and has a residence of foresters here here

they are much more interesting for the companies in the Netherlands and also

very good for our economy but what is happening now is we cannot

build on the economy because breaking down ami together with the others

you have started the lobby towards educational institutes and even dutch

parliament can you tell us a little bit more about it but if you are going to

consider this pandemic as one of those manifestations of force majeure we can

convince the Parliament and the government to provide us with an

extension of our visas so that not only the Dutch employers or international

companies can have better facilities to hire us because they won't have to go

through all those legal procedures because we already have a valid work

permit but also we can seal you know contribute because we use salary scheme

and this is also you know beneficial for us because it was the goal with which

the interest country

the five of us we know how relevant and important this group of talented

churches and professionals is to the Dutch economy and of course we can voice

that and share our sympathy in society but perhaps it's more effective to stay

in our own ballpark as lawyers so what are the legal answers to this current

insecurity what we know is that the provision in the alien act degree that

covers the situation of searchers explicitly restricts the immigration

office so that the physik cannot be extended after one year legislation must

be amended first and approved by Parliament which can take up many months

or is there any other option the Mandy yes of course the law itself is strict

but I know the immigration naturalization service for a while

and if they really want to they can little color outside the lines I mean

they made someone the recognized sponsor who officially did not comply with the

requirements because the lawmakers and others forgot that part of governments

does not comply with the requirements and then they can do well then they can

stretch the lines of the law so yes it is strictly stated that it's not

possible but that doesn't mean it's not possible the same with for example in

the there is a possibility for a work permit which is only possible to get for

24 weeks practitioner so sort of learning on the job but if you

substantiate that quite well you can also get it for a longer duration of

time so just the fact that it's stated that it's not possible does not mean

it's not possible to my opinion though do you know Tomas yeah in addition to

that well I do agree that and I really like the phrase the fact that it's not

possible doesn't mean it's not possible for it I really like that that wording

but what I would recommend let's say search your visa expires tomorrow and

you don't know what to do I would always say make some sort of Apple

to either convert the permit maybe even make an extension application even

though it's not possible legally because bending such an application there will

be legal residents what we call procedural legal residents and at least

that creates legal residents and also will not lead to residents gap per se

under for example rules of for the long term resident of the EU permit of

permanent residence from unfortunately not for citizenship but I would always

recommend to have something in the air at the IND to make sure that the the

residency is still there albeit not on a physical card but but procedure

tell us a second you're suggesting to file an application anyway no matter if

you cannot meet the requirements we have to talk through the details of course

but at least this will offer the applicant some injury-time

as I call it new developments can occur and the requirements can be met later in

the procedure even during a Minister of Appeal or the IND well for some leniency

so doing nothing and wait is not an option and even better it would be when

as many affected persons would apply for this professional visa huge numbers will

alarm the immigration office and may trigger the policymakers to offer

alternatives i would like to prepare a do-it-yourself kits that can be

downloaded from the website and be filed by the foreign national himself

not only sergers are at risk but also foreign employees mostly high skilled

margins we're now given notice and lose their job they do better make sure that

they will apply for an extension even there is not yet a job inside

do you agree Mandy initially it's actually the same advice as some of them

you just iterate cigar to just apply for any permit in order to make sure that

you have sort of a extra time to find a new job and otherwise try your luck at

payroll companies who are recognizing sponsors because the best part of being

a knowledge driving is that you can be seconded to other party quite easily and

the only thing that you need to take into account then is officially once you

are not Wiseman you can of course work for several restaurant sponsors but then

with each of those sponsors you need to completely fulfill all the requirements

so once salary criteria applicable with that back my sponsor if you'll sort or

another recognised sponsor for both of them you will have to earn at least the

entire salary criterion regardless if you were quote kohada there but if you

work for a payroll company that payroll company is directional sponsor the

payroll company therefore pays your wages they make sure that you comply

with the seven criteria they are however allowed to second you to one company to

companies or three companies and the fact that you there work 20 hours 10

hours and 10 hours you still get paid by one formal employer by one recognized

monster and their risk you can comply so that is a little bit something that you

can play with but I have to tell you then make sure that's the payroll

company also taking through the cap accounts the labor times law in the

Netherlands because that is something the Labour inspector and of course Kevin

fish just missed one thing that is often overlooked and I'm just curious whether

you work with that or or what your position is on that

both Julianne Mandy Thomas is the highly skilled migrants went when they are

working and that during the the search here as well they

fall within the scope of the European Union single permit directive and

article 12 of that directive grants equal treatment for working migrants for

a couple of things with regard to their liberal rights with regard to the

assistance of Labor authorities with finding work and there's a huge

organization being set up for Dutch people to to find jobs in in sectors

that they weren't aware that the were there because their sector doesn't exist

anymore so people need to be flexible and move into different kind of jumps

I've suggested to them that they would also include in their services the

highly skilled and the search year people and they weren't actually there

negative about that idea especially because the high skills maybe high IT

skills available as well and could be of relevance to essential business at the

moment so that could also be right at this moment a way to go and to contact

them and to see what kind of services they can offer and I would say under the

single pyramid directive there is actually an entitlement to those

services

Tomas how about the situation where the current employee cannot comply with the

salary conditions for highly skilled migrants and suspends the payments can

the immigration office cancer the residence permit and what will happen

next if permits all heisted migrants should

be withdrawn due to the fact that the income criteria wasn't met for a word

met or the the well at some point not all conditions from it then this

retroactive withdrawal should also be in line with the principle of

proportionality of EU law based on this single parameter active and I think

maybe in the slipstream of these dis pandemic we will see cases about this

map this matter and and and to argue that the single permit directive bars

bars that Immigration Service from suddenly withdrawing permits in these

force majeure situation yeah but so I would definitely say that the EU law can

can help us lawyers to plead the case but also and that's the most important

part the individuals what my experience is that they if they withdraw they also

just withdraw from the moment that even the requirements were were not met until

now and then you have to appeal to sort of mend the gap as much as possible but

I would say that if a gap occurs outside of the highly skilled migrants sphere of

influence such as is endemic but I've seen cases in the past of employers who

made a mistake that the holistic mind could not influence well well that's

really something that would bother would be would be worth arguing yeah more

practical aspects because what we are talking now is more specifically you

know what's he's reconvened in law but what we on the other side of the table

are it's practically is totally different because

first of all there is no job now that you know we are applying there is not

only now but also it's been predicted that we are going to have a huge

unemployment so this is you know let's put it extreme that we really are going

to have job scarcity you know all of it is if if companies are willing to hire

us and also a type of indirect Leste indication of a hidden preference for

the Nationals we have seen cases in which possibly there was there are a lot

of candidates and we saw that you know for example candidate which was not a

European was quite qualified for that job and he or she received this email

that another candidate was preferred free and then they went through this and

we all compared the job requirements with the application with the CV of a

candidate we came to this conclusion that there is still this tendency it is

hidden tendency for the Nationals and this can even make situation worse for a

non Europeans if I may respond to that I mean I think you're right I mean

research again and again shows that the Dutch labor market discriminates against

people with a migration migrant name or look in that case I think what would be

good is if there's and it's very difficult to prove so but nevertheless

if all internationals would complain with the Dutch Committee for complaints

on discrimination on the labor market and I think

this when we're talking about this in the final footing we can give the little

address Julia where they can do that because there's very little people who

complain about it and we found that people just don't know that this is an

option that you can complain about discrimination in application procedures

we have a legal procedure for that so if even though a lot of cases fail

nevertheless I would say file the complaint and if the more their

complaints are again it's been mentioned before it gives a signal that there is a

group in in despair that society needs to pay attention to discrimination is

absolutely nothing in their estimated problem and especially in a job market

and I know it has the attention of the authorities and the committee of Human

Rights but it will take a long time before employees do not pay any

attention anymore to the candidates name or background and start to take the

business seriously and just pick the best man or woman on the job

back to the current career no problems this requires an immediate medicine for

foreign professionals so I reckon not only the in the immigration office but

also different responsible ministries and stakeholders must be made aware

about the problems like Ministry of Economic Affairs and Social Affairs and

employment and I hope disaffected people are able to organize themselves in a

more professional framework so that the lobby will be structured and continuing

even after the pandemic I did like yours summing up also of other ministries that

might be relevant I would also say the Ministry of Education

you didn't mention them but I think they were the ones who supported the higher

educational institutions getting you in you know you you're the the tuition fees

that you paid was part of their business model so sort of turning around to put

your money where your mouth is

why aren't they stepping up for you guys saying we recruited them we were happy

that they were coming and now they are our internationals

and we need to be there for them so that would also be a possible venue possibly

through also the various Anu by the association of universities and nothing

the the organization I also involved an international student migration so I I

that would sepal Italy I would also suggest to touch base with them and see

Thank You Tessa and you're right the students and searchers have all the

right to demand something back some some solidarity from the Institute's and

organizations that have benefited from their investments in the Netherlands I

started off that I'm not happy but I must admit the contributions from you

all and especially from you Amy that I'm at least very inspired to continue

crest and find solutions mehndi Tomas and Hans of kuzava card we will now

develop legal strategies and I'm sure touch available supplies with helpful

documentation and in the meantime ami we keep in touch on Facebook to advance

this campaign and there is already good news I can tell you that because a

manager in the irony picked up the bus on LinkedIn and Facebook and reach out

to me they are very aware of the issues and they are also very interested in our

stories and feedback that was told in this video so more used to follow soon

and thank you Amy tests achieve many interments for your contributions and to

our viewers I would like to say this is just the beginning of something big so

stay healthy and stay tuned thanks