DAVE: Good morning.
AUDIENCE: Good morning.
DAVE: So today's a very exciting day.
It marks the launch of our Talks at Google Friendly Debate
Series, where we bring together people
who take different positions on key issues,
with the hopes that through their dialogue,
we're able to better understand questions whose answers are
less clear cut.
So today the question we'll be exploring
is, what is the ideal diet?
And so I'd like to begin by introducing our, moderator
Google's very own Jesse Michael's.
Jesse, Jesse is a program manager
on machine intelligence, with a particular affinity
towards dietary habits.
Please join me in welcoming to the stage Jesse Michaels.
JESSE MICHAELS: Thank you, Dave.
I really appreciate it.
Yes, I do have a particular affinity
towards dietary habits, mainly--
like Kip, actually, I'm a hypochondriac,
so I'm always kind of thinking about what is the ideal diet.
And I think like a lot of you, you read articles,
you read press, you look at what's out there,
and there are a lot of experts saying
completely conflicting things.
There's no kind of apparent consensus on this issue.
And so what I'm hoping to get out of this
is kind of a rational elucidation and dissection
of what is the ideal diet from people
who have different viewpoints.
But hopefully, we can find some common ground
and we can give you some resources to kind of look this
up for yourself as well.
So I want to introduce my panelists.
So Dave Asprey.
He's a businessman, an author, a blogger.
He's a biohacker.
He's tried everything on himself.
He's a human guinea pig.
He recently wrote "Headstrong," which
is all about mental clarity and peak performance and what diet
is conducive to that.
And then famously, his kind of foundational work
is "The Bulletproof Diet," which involves
allocating 50% of your diet to healthy fat.
After him, we have we have Kip.
Kip just came out with a bombshell of a documentary
Kip Anderson, by the way.
And it basically has caused a lot of people
around the world to go vegan.
And it talks about all of the dangers
of eating meats, processed meats, and dairy,
and it exposes a lot, and I think
it's a really good documentary, and you guys should definitely
check it out.
Before that, he actually had a documentary
called "Cowspiracy," which talks about the environmental dangers
of eating meat.
So I think that work kind of speaks for itself,
and you guys should definitely watch it if you haven't.
And then we have Dr. Joel Kahn, last but not least.
You guys should go on drjoelkahn.com.
That really kind of is the best kind of resource for him
in terms of his work.
He'll give you weekly health tips.
So maybe you watch Kip's documentary
and you want to go vegan, Dr. Joel Kahn's
a great kind of practical way to go vegan.
He gives you a lot of really helpful tips.
He's been vegan for 25 years himself.
He is a cardiologist, and he focuses on preventative care
And then finally, he has an actually
an Amazon best-selling book called "The Whole Heart"
that you guys should definitely check out.
So without further ado, I kind of
want to get into just individually your backgrounds
and the kind of trajectory of your thought.
So, how you came to believe what you currently believe
is the ideal diet through your own personal experiences.
We can start with you, Dave.
DAVE ASPREY: I've been a Silicon Valley
guy for most of my career.
I used weigh 300 pounds.
And I couldn't really see my feet, much less touch them.
As my career was taking off, I was a co-founder
of a part of the company that held Google's first server when
it was two guys from Stanford and one server,
before Google built its own data centers.
And I started to have really serious brain fog.
So my career's taking off, and I just
found I couldn't really pay attention.
My emotions were all over the place.
And I decided, well, I could work out six days a week.
In fact, I can cut my calories to 1,800 calories.
I could go vegan before it was cool.
And all I got was fatter and more tired.
After 18 months of working out, I could bench
press all of my friends.
And they didn't work out, and they
were all thinner than I was, and I ate less than they did.
And at a certain point I'm like, I'm trying,
but maybe I'm not trying hard enough,
and I thought it was a moral failing.
And eventually, I said, you know what?
I'm a hacker.
In fact, I can take the stuff we use to manage the internet,
and I can turn it back on myself,
and I can look at things we know,
understanding there's a lot of things we don't know.
When we work on infrastructure, you only
know the stuff you control, but you're
going out across all the stuff that other people control,
yet somehow you can still make the results you want.
We still don't know a huge amount about our own biology,
but it's very easy for us to say, all right,
here is a bunch of data points, rather than
epidemiological studies saying, some people eat this,
and not controlling for millions of variables
that might matter, and sort of make a conclusion there,
I could actually go out and say, what am I testing right now,
is there a plausible reason for this,
and do I see and feel results that I can measure?
And I lost 100 pounds.
I turned my brain back on.
I'm younger and more energetic on every level.
And it turns out there is enormous amounts of data
that everyone listening to this can go out and Google for.
And you can find, oh, wait, there are studies on PubMed
that say the exact opposite of what things like the American
Heart Association and the recent attack
on coconut oil, things like that--
oh, wait, you stopped looking at all data after 1974
in order to make those conclusions?
Well, what about the new data?
So it's becoming increasingly hard to fool people,
but increasingly easy to just simplify things.
When I look at my favorite animal protein product,
it's spider venom.
Wait, that's an animal protein that's clearly bad for you.
And my favorite plant based protein
is ricin, the nerve gas.
So anytime someone tells you plant-based or animal-based,
those are meaningless terms.
It's like a liquid diet.
Well, was it gasoline, or was it water?
Because they do different things to your biology.
And how is it prepared?
All these things matter.
And I ended up with this basic algorithm that works.
And the algorithm goes like this.
Stop doing the things that make you weak.
You probably don't know all of them,
but at least find some of them.
Then do the things that make you strong.
And most nutrition research focuses
on just doing stuff that makes you strong,
or these very broad platitude-based things that
are so broad that they caused you
to do things that make you weak even if there is value in them.
So it's a question of having precision for you.
And prime examples would be if you eat processed meats,
they do one thing to you because of a bacteria in your gut.
If you eat unprocessed meats that are fed a different thing,
it's actually a different outcome.
It even has different environmental costs.
So you look at the system of the human body.
You look at all the things that are going in
that you can measure, you realize
you're not measuring almost everything that's
going on in the world around you that affects your biology.
And then you start course correcting.
And for me, it led to profound improvements
in cognitive function, as well as
sort of effortlessly maintaining the weight
that I wanted without ever experiencing
hunger and cravings.
And I quit being a raw vegan.
In fact, it made me really sick.
And a lot of people have had problems with that.
And there are other people, like Joel
here, who have been vegan for 25 years
and are still walking around.
So I will say one thing that I learned
through the course of all this, if you're not
covering your plate with vegetables first,
you're doing it wrong.
However, not all vegetables do the same things to you
either, so you might want to pay some attention there.
So you have to get the details for what
works for you, because your ultimate diet may not
be the same as mine.
But I guarantee you, if you do less
of the stuff that makes you weak with your genetics, your biome,
your mitochondrial DNA, you're going to like it.
And there's a list of things that
make large swaths of the population weak.
So you just have to figure out what
your own personal kryptonite is, avoid that, and then
play around with other things, like macronutrients.
JESSE MICHAELS: Got ya.
Kip, I'm sure you have a lot to say to that.
KIP ANDERSEN: I'll keep it a little shorter than that.
So basically, it's really started out as similar.
I think our backgrounds are similar as really truth
We're really trying to find out what the truth is,
what the truth is.
And I was a hypochondriac.
I was a hardcore hypochondriac.
I took, at 18 years old, Metamucil every day for fiber.
And my both sides were diabetes and all these things.
So I was really hardcore into genetics.
Like, oh my god.
I'm going to die.
And then, I guess this is the part where we differ,
where what my decision was, what I
was trying to do under my own experiments on myself
is I want to take other things in consideration,
not just myself.
A lot of people think of health as just me, me, me.
And I was getting to the point where I was starting to do
a little bit of yoga, still starting to see the bigger
picture of now that we're--
if anyone's seen the film "Cowspiracy,"
it goes into this a little bit more.
We're 7 billion humans on this planet.
When I think of holistic health, I
don't think of holistic health as my own body,
this physical being.
Not only do I think of health as mind/body,
but I sort started thinking more of spiritual health, spirit
health, mind, body, spirit, and then taking health
into consideration of the entire planet,
and then taking health in also consideration
of my personal moral compass.
And then that's what I said, rather than--
I guess you'd say biohacking, I guess
I would call it bioharmonizing.
Like, my whole thing is about harmonizing myself
within this greater picture of this planet,
especially at the time we live in.
Rather than Bulletproof Coffee or Bulletproof Diet,
you know we have enough bullets arounds.
It sounds like a Trump thing.
I'd say more of something like a harmony diet,
to incorporate myself within the bigger picture.
So that's why I started experimenting different things,
looking into the environmental impacts.
As you see with "Cowspiracy," interviewing different doctors.
By no means is it cherry picking,
if anyone says that "What the Health?" if anything,
it's finding gold flakes of this murky industry-funded river
and finding out the truth.
And then the other thing I say is choose,
really-- there's one thing about learning
the truth, the feeling the truth,
and that's where you go to a place like True North Health
Center, and you see those four case studies
that people think are fake in "What the Health?",
where they've reversed their illnesses where
they thought they were going to die within weeks or months.
In three weeks, they're off all the medications.
And that is truth.
And I think it's one other thing too, though--
this is kind of going another question,
but we're at a time of history we're people
are looking at this time.
And there is only, essentially, you
look at different periods of time, different movements,
whatever you call it, civil rights, women's rights.
You know, more recently, gay rights and transgender rights.
They're all still going.
They're all still happening.
We've not resolved any of these.
And the next one is animal rights.
And the next one is about encompassing all,
that we are all equal.
And that's where the mind, body, spirit
comes in, and not only spiritual health, but spiritual health
for the entire planet.
And I think that's the thing that people who get
lost in "What the Health?"
is when we go to North Carolina, regardless of four or five
facts that we can debate all day,
whether it's right or wrong, because you
can manipulate nutritional studies,
but go to North Carolina and see "I Love Bacon,"
or "I love meat."
Do you really?
Do you really?
I know where my meat comes from, so it's OK.
Do you know the animal was killed?
What slaughterhouse was that?
And would you really kill your own animal?
So that's a part too, that you have
to look into consideration of complete total health.
And I think that's where my journey leads
to "Cowspiracy" that goes into "What the Health?"
is health is much bigger than just me, I, and that's
all that matters.
It's more about harmonizing yourself
with something that's much greater, especially
with 7 billion people.
JESSE MICHAELS: Doctor?
JOEL KAHN: So my journey to sit in the chair
today began when I was actually 18, and Jesse it's cool.
But actually, I walked into the dormitory cafeteria
at University of Michigan, 1977, and I became a plant eater
because the salad bar attracted me and nothing else.
So I've not had a burger in 40 years.
I'm 58 and a 1/2 years old.
Never taken a prescription drug.
And I actually have more energy than all my peers,
and they know that.
And it irritates them, because they like their burger
and fries still.
But as I entered medical training--
and you know, I don't want to talk anymore about me.
It doesn't really matter.
We're all truth seekers, but I do it
in a medical office, where I feel completely
obligated to give people direction
to maintain their health, prevent disease, or reverse
the disease they have.
I think it's a very high moral obligation,
and it's caused me to be a constant student.
If there was data that I found that said
that patient with heart disease eating meat
would improve their health, I would recommend that
and routinely prescribe it, because my moral obligation.
It doesn't matter what I eat in my own home.
It matters what's going to be right for you.
So I've had to seek that out and try and synthesize and guide
There's some really important people
in this town that have dropped dead
of the disease I take care of.
I've been up at 3:00 in the morning
taking care of heart attacks for 30 years now.
But I mean, a good friend of mine, Dean [INAUDIBLE],, who
was a big project manager at Apple, 2013, playing
hockey dropped dead of a 90% blocked artery, unknown.
Kirk Krikorian-- some you may know that name, maybe not.
Big time Silicon Valley investor and such.
Surfing last year.
Walking to his car, drops dead of a heart attack.
You guys might not know this, the former CEO
of Intel, Paul Otellini, four weeks ago dropped dead at 66.
I mean, these are tragic things.
That's what I've been dealing with.
So I mean, the focus is health promotion
I do believe there's a uniform diet we could agree with,
the three of us sitting up here.
There is a group called True Health Initiative, which
has over 400 health and nutrition experts
all over the world, very different opinions, who've
agreed to come up with a core kind of nutritional philosophy
no matter where they are and what they personally at home.
And I'll leave it to Jesse to maybe ask a few more questions,
and I'll share that with it.
But this is a relevant conversation for you
in your 20's, because we know from studies,
I am not here to really fight with anybody.
Dave kind of threw out something called
PubMed, which is a National Library of Medicine, 26 million
peer-reviewed medical articles.
I live in PubMed, because if we don't base our recommendations
on science, recognizing the flaws, funding conflicts,
that there's more associations and actual randomized trials.
Nutrition trials are tough.
Let's get a million people to eat
one way and a million people to eat the other.
Do that for 20 years and solve these things.
It ain't happening.
So we've got to go with, you know,
eating too much x is associated with y,
or we have nothing to stand on.
But I think there is a commonality.
And in fact, none of us here eat crap.
None of us here pull into fast food restaurants.
None of us here add sugar in our food on purpose.
You know, none of us here barbecue things to a crisp
and eat all the toxic components that come out of barbecuing
called advanced glycation end products, heterocyclic amines,
So there's a lot in common here.
And I think that's important as you walk out of here.
Don't go on your way home, pick up bucket of KFC,
even if it has a Susan G. Komen Breast Cancer Prevention
symbol on it.
And don't go buy Fruit Loops if it
has the American Heart Association
symbol for whole grains.
Eat whole grains.
In my world, just don't do it in a way
that's perverse to your health.
JESSE MICHAELS: Cool.
I want to kind of establish where the commonalities are,
and then where the kind of sticking points are.
So I think everybody on this panel
is pretty against like, processed meats, for example.
You're a proponent of grass fed.
JOEL KAHN: I like grass.
JESSE MICHAELS: You like grass.
You're full vegan.
And so is that really-- like, I want
to establish a framework for what we actually disagree on.
Is that it, or do you guys disagree on more than that?
DAVE ASPREY: I actually calculated
the deaths per calorie of The Bulletproof Diet.
I was in Tibet, where I discovered
yak butter tea that was the genesis for Bulletproof Coffee.
And I was vegetarian at the time.
And I said, hey, Mr. Llama, the guy
who leads the monastery at 15,000 feet.
And I said, that's a yak skin on your prayer pole,
and your sign over there says "No killing,
no lying, no drugs."
So you're a hypocrite.
And he started laughing.
He goes, well, one death feeds everyone.
And we talked about it for about an hour.
And I live on an organic farm.
We raise our own sheep.
I've been to the slaughterhouse.
I haven't had a grain-fed animal in 10 years.
And if you're eating grain-fed meat right now,
you're doing it wrong.
You're harming the planet.
You're harming yourself.
Bottom line is when you feed that stuff to a cow,
especially if it's not even organic,
and you're getting glyphosate in there,
you're getting antibiotic residues
that cause your gut bacteria to change, which makes
them create toxic compounds.
So I think for me, soil integrity and ocean integrity
is at the root of the recommendations that I make,
because you will not be a high performance human if you live
in a world full of crap around you that's a result of the diet
And that's an area where I think all of us agree,
it's not just about us.
It's about how we feel.
And I also think that all of us are in alignment on the fact
that we want to feel a lot of energy.
Because if you make it about everything around you,
and you like crap all the time, and you're struggling,
and your brain doesn't work very well,
you are wasting all the calories you put into your body
because you're not getting a return on those.
And that's something that happened
to me in a lot of my life.
And like, I will not allow that to happen
to anyone that I help today.
JESSE MICHAELS: Kip?
KIP ANDERSEN: Just one thing on the grass-fed beef.
If anyone's watched "Cowspiracy,"
we don't even talk about factory-farmed beef.
We go straight into, OK, everybody
knows that's bad for you.
Grass-fed beef as according to land
use-- these are things that are not debatable.
Land use-- and you have sheep--
for a grass-fed cow takes five to 10 times as much land.
So the part that's debatable, greenhouse
gases, that's debatable.
What's not debatable is land use.
We have a part in "Cowpiracy" that
showed if everyone had two scoops of butter, cow fat,
and ate grass-fed beef, of how much land use it would cover.
Just America would go north of Canada.
This is every square inch.
This would be leveled, all the way down to Brazil.
And that is not one other single animal
can live where there's pasteurized grass-fed beef.
That's why all the wolves are killed, all the bears, all
the coyotes, while there's more horses round up, living
in holding cells than are free.
And that is not factory farm.
That is grass-fed.
The reason why is land use.
Land use, and they live 35% longer,
so they're using more resources.
So the whole grass-fed thing is just a marketing term,
you know, about regenerating soil
that's already been exposed of what that is.
Only 15% come out--
when you have any animal, and you whatever you eat,
an animal, only about 15%, 20%, comes back in the land,
so you're regenerating hardly anything.
It's extremely inefficient.
And I think just the other thing that we disag--
it's very important to note of you mentioning,
like when you did this biohacking and losing weight,
it's very important to recognize--
and you say this openly-- that you were on steroids
and testosterone and legal, as you call it, "meth,"
but safer, for eight years.
And I think that's very important--
DAVE ASPREY: No.
That is false.
Just so we can be really clear on that.
KIP ANDERSEN: OK.
Well, it was medophenol, or some sort of speed.
If I am jacked up on--
DAVE ASPREY: It's not speed, dude.
Get your science right.
KIP ANDERSEN: OK, OK.
Something that's for narcoleptics.
Does anyone know what narcolepsy is?
It's someone who takes that for steroids.
And I think it's just very important
to note that that's not left out.
Because that's very important in this equation.
So we can do this without getting jacked up on drugs--
DAVE ASPREY: All right.
Here's the deal.
I went off the stuff for three years
while developing The Bulletproof Diet.
The fact that I use cognitive enhancers kicks ass.
And the fact that you're not doing them
might be why there's cigars on hot dog buns in your movie.
KIP ANDERSEN: What?
DAVE ASPREY: All right.
JOEL KAHN: I'm gonna bring it back.
I'm actually a militant vegan blogger.
KIP ANDERSEN: That's an oxymoron.
JOEL KAHN: Mike [INAUDIBLE] labeled that.
But I'm in a very loving and harmonious mood today.
I'm just excited to be at Google,
and all your people out there.
I will say one, and only one thing.
Dave may not have seen it.
May have seen it.
October 2, 2017, 127-page publication
of Oxford University on the impact of grass-fed beef
on the environment.
It's as deleterious to greenhouse gas production
as his CAFOO-based, grain-fed beef.
According to science, and I'm always going to science.
I don't really want an opinion.
I want science.
I trust doctors at universities.
I want to bring this together, though.
I've mentioned something called the True Health Initiative.
It's not a paid position.
It's over 400 scientists and physicians and dieticians
that have come up.
And I want to give you that core definition that we use,
because I want you to walk out of here with something
you can do.
So number one, eat minimally processed foods.
I think all three of us will say that's right.
That's not the middle of the grocery store.
That's not vending machines, usually.
That's not fast food.
That's not gas station food.
Eat minimally processed.
Eat close to nature.
If you can find farmer's markets,
if you can find produce--
frozen vegetables are often better
than stuff that's been transported
2,000 miles from California to my home in Detroit.
Eat close to nature.
Number three is eat a predominately a plant-based
Those aren't my words.
It doesn't say exclusively.
The plate needs to be full.
The USDA says that half your plate should
be fruits and vegetables.
The Harvard School of Public Health
says half your plates are fruits and vegetables.
How many people do that in America?
Less than 3%.
So predominantly plants.
And your liquid should be predominantly
water, not sugar-sweetened beverages, not all kinds
of energized drinks that are putting chemicals in you,
and particularly, refined sugars, you don't need.
We have to be very careful about the language
too, because there's all kinds of carbs,
there's all kinds of sugars.
Are they added in an orange?
Are they natural in an orange?
Are they added in a soda?
And you add to that seven to eight hours of sleep a night,
you add regular physical activity, you add community,
you add socialization, and social support,
you prevent disease and you promote health,
whether you're in Okinawa, whether you're in Sardinia,
whether you're in Costa Rica, whether you're in Loma Linda,
whether you're here in Mountain View.
I mean, it isn't that hard.
So if you like that three or four close to nature,
minimally processed, predominantly plants,
and you want to put some other stuff on it,
you're probably on the right track,
because you're doing better than you know 3/4 and 80%
of people that don't have their own animals in the yard
and don't have access to the kind of food
we're talking about.
We're all sort of elitist eaters,
either because of spiritual, because of environmental.
In my case, predominantly because of medical.
I think you have to be--
and one of the questions Jessie prepared us for,
where does moderation--
I am not--
I don't think any of us are moderate eaters on the panel.
I'm an exquisitely careful eater,
and I've done that for 40 years.
And I teach my patients be moderate in your exercise.
Be fanatic about the care you put in your body.
I think Dave would agree with that.
He's fanatic about what he puts in his body
in a different sense.
But there's a lot in common here that would bring up
the health of America.
JESSE MICHAELS: Dr. Kahn, I want to press you on one thing.
Just the grass-fed beef.
Both you and Kip spoke to kind of just negative
Do you think it's not healthy as well, and why?
JOEL KAHN: Just a quick answer, because I
do want to be fair to time.
It's an elitist question in that 95
plus percent of the meat eaten in America
is not grass-fed beef.
It's still what's called CAFO factory farmed beef.
We all agree that is the worst of scenarios.
To cruelty to animals, cruelty to workers,
disease in workers, environmental destruction.
And the cool thing is with all these ag-gag laws,
now drones are flying over these places
and making movies that couldn't be made before
of these pools of crap from animals
that are exploding and going into the waters and the ground.
Why do we have arsenic in rice and chicken?
Because there's just been exposures of all these
toxins in the environment.
So we all agree.
Shut those down.
And that's not going to happen quick.
These are the biggest, most powerful companies
But you should be concerned that 95-plus percent of the meat
in America is toxic.
Dave agreed in a blog he wrote that meat
is like smoking if we're talking about processed meat.
And we all agree to that.
I mean, it's horrible.
But it's what you're going to eat
unless you're exquisitely careful about what
you put in your body.
This is a good age to do it at, because you'll
reap the benefits.
Science is progressing.
You guys can all live over 100 if you
take good care of yourself now.
You really can, and wear a seat belt.
KIP ANDERSEN: What's your thoughts
on whether grass-fed beef is better though?
JOEL KAHN: Well, you know, there's little clues.
There is science-- again, I like science.
There's clues that grass-fed beef versus conventional beef
has some health benefits over the CAFO-raised beef.
The factory-farmed beef, in terms of omega-3 and some
There is no beef on the planet that has fiber.
There's no beef on the planet that has much
in the way of rich vitamins.
We know those are plant-based.
But we all agree your plate should be either completely,
or to a large extent, covered with plants.
That's already elitist compared to the 1% to 3%
of Americans that actually eat five servings of fruit
and vegetables a day.
We want you to do that.
There's this coolest study out there.
You take a hospital hamburger.
Literally, and I love it, because I
think hospital food is the biggest damn embarrassment
in the United States right now.
You take a hospital hamburger and you eat it,
and you can measure within 45 minutes if your arteries are
functioning less well than before the hospital hamburger.
You throw a big slab of avocado or a big salad
along with the hamburger, you bring yourself
back up to neutral.
So whatever you're eating, always
add the plants to the meal.
Again, there's commonality of opinion here.
Grass-fed beef, again, 90% plus--
John Mackey spoke here, the founder of Whole Foods.
His kind of philosophy is eat plants 90% and the last 10%
is your decision.
There's certain patients I don't think
that's true for as a medical doctor.
But as a societal recommendation,
that's cool by me.
JESSE MICHAELS: OK.
Assuming diets aren't one size fits all,
how do you go about kind of figuring out what
the best ideal diet is for you?
DAVE ASPREY: One of the things I did on the Bulletproof Diet
roadmap, which is a free download on the website,
and it's basically my first big book in an infographic,
is to say, look, there's a bunch of suspect foods.
And one of the examples here is the nightshade family.
These are potatoes, tomatoes, eggplant, bell peppers,
things like that.
Roughly a third of cases of rheumatoid arthritis
are caused by eating this.
And what happens is that animals don't
want you to eat their babies.
That's why we're so protective of our young.
Well, plants really can't do those same things,
so they cover their babies in protective compounds.
That's why if you go into the park
and you eat most of the plants there,
you'll get profoundly sick, because they're
protecting themselves from you.
So some of us have genetic reasons that we will not
handle those well.
If you give me something that's cooked
with a little sprinkle of cayenne pepper,
I'll have the arthritis back in my knee
that I've had since I was 14.
It's caused by food.
That said, cayenne is really a healthy compound
for the other 2/3 of people.
So I go through these four big categories of plant defense
systems that are put in by mother nature, not by man,
and say, these may not be compatible with your biology,
but they might be compatible with the biology of someone
next to you.
So you need to eliminate all of those likely suspects
for a couple of weeks and see how you feel,
and then go out and have like, pizza, beer, cheesecake,
whatever bad stuff you can think of and just be like, oh,
my god, that's how I used to feel.
All of that stuff came back, and then go
through the process of elimination.
It is not the same for everyone.
JESSE MICHAELS: You guys would probably
say a lot of the foods--
JOEL KAHN: I'll grab a quickie on that.
So if it's not one diet fits all,
and I don't know that we know that.
I don't know that we couldn't put everybody on a single diet
and their health would blossom.
You know what I would choose?
It would be a well-constructed rainbow
diet of minimally processed plant-based foods.
It works real well for disease processes
to eat that way according to medical science,
and certainly in my field, cardiology.
But there is such a thing, if you
don't feel well, if you've got brain fog, if you've
got bloating, if you've got joint pain,
do an elimination diet.
Dave and I share a friend JJ Virgin
who wrote a rather good book called "The Virgin Diet."
So you eliminate dairy.
See how you feel for six to eight weeks.
Very common, not just the bloating and the gas.
My wife was that example.
I hope she doesn't mind my saying.
But when we walked into that dorm cafeteria 40 years ago
and she stopped eating dairy, in a week she felt better.
She thought it was just Jewish food made you feel bad.
It turns out it was dairy in the Jewish food made her feel bad.
You know, she's enjoyed that.
So do that.
I don't think America needs a gluten-free 100% of people,
but there are people with celiac disease undiagnosed.
There's people who have celiac sensitivity.
Do that for six to eight.
It might even take three months to see how better you feel now.
Now, I will argue with you, if you
don't need to be gluten-free, the science
says, particularly if you're buying processed,
rice-based bread substitutes, which are common everywhere,
you may not be doing your health a favor.
So elimination diet is a way to do it.
There are a lot of people who will do a 21-day Daniel fast.
Maybe you've heard of that in churches, which
is based on the Book of Daniel.
It's kind of a plant-based religious thing.
But the medical documentation from the University
of Tennessee in Memphis is blood sugar, C-reactive protein,
blood pressure, blood cholesterol will go down
in three weeks by doing kind of that kind of elimination.
And then go back and add foods in one at a time.
Very logical way to see what's bugging you.
KIP ANDERSEN: Just to add to that,
because we asked every single doctor in our film,
oh, you hear, oh, I've been vegan for two weeks, or three
weeks, or whatever it is.
Or at least people say, and I don't feel good.
What is going on?
The bottom line they all kind of said
is that get tested for what's going on.
I think Dr. Goldhamer says, there's nothing in dead rotting
animal flesh, whether it's you just killed or not,
in animal flesh that you cannot get somewhere else.
And you so find out.
If you're not feeling well, you're
not having the right diet.
There's maybe something that you can tweak yourself, your diet
But you can substitute everything
with plant-based foods.
If you love cheese, like I do--
I was a hardcore cheeseholic.
When I got off cheese, when I went vegan for the first three
weeks, I've felt the best I've ever
had in my life to this day.
But now finally, I've been vegan 10 years, just
in the past year and a half to two years, now
I have nut cheeses again, because they're actually good.
So that's the main thing, is the takeaway.
If you have something to tweak to your diet,
it's Keto or whatever, or even if it's fat or not fat,
you can have a plant-based version, and it's incredible,
and it's good for you.
Not only for good for you mentally,
physically, spiritually, but it's good for the planet,
and you don't have to kill any animals.
Bonus all around.
JOEL KAHN: I just want to jump in there for a minute.
The hottest diet right now in Silicon Valley
according to the newspaper almost every day
is the keto diet, ketogenic diet.
Low carb, relatively high fat, and brain power, and the rest.
And I'm not even mimicking it.
In fact, there's a new startup this week,
you can now buy ketone bodies in a bottle,
three bottles for $100, to enhance
your athletic performance.
There are plant-based keto diets.
There's a Facebook user page in the last few months
that's grown to enormous numbers of plant-based ketogenic diet.
But more important, science rules to me, Valter Longo, PhD,
is the world's leading expert on aging and longevity.
He's the head of a Biogerontology Research
Institute in Los Angeles at USC.
He's got a plant-based ketogenic five day
a month diet I use in all my patients.
It's amazing and transformative to eat nuts, olives,
60% of calories from fat, very low protein,
because protein activates aging pathways.
No added sugar, because everybody hates sugar.
Nobody loves sugar.
We can debate what sugar does to your health status,
but we don't like it.
And the results that have been published in animals and humans
with a plant-based, five-day ketogenic diet
are actually transformative in terms
of multiple sclerosis, brain growth, BDNF,
a protein in your brain.
But just getting a flat belly again.
So there are all these different paths.
I just wanted to shout out.
But even in Silicon Valley, you can
be on the cutting edge of what seems to be a trend,
but also do it in a way that might be a little more helpful,
in my opinion.
JESSE MICHAELS: Dave, if you can get all of your protein
from plants and you can do a plant-based ketogenic diet,
why are you a big fan of grass-fed beef and other meats?
DAVE ASPREY: There are these things called cell membranes
in the body.
We like to think that we have this membrane around ourselves,
but it's actually made of tiny droplets of fat.
And all of our hormones are made out of cholesterol.
And very interesting new research
just came out that shows that the plaque in your arteries
doesn't come from the food that you eat.
It actually comes from bacteria.
JOEL KAHN: It's a maybe.
DAVE ASPREY: In the gut.
JOEL KAHN: But it is new.
DAVE ASPREY: Yeah, well, it's that whole I
like science thing.
JOEL KAHN: It's one study.
It's one study.
DAVE ASPREY: I don't know.
It's one study, though--
JOEL KAHN: Versus 110 years of other studies.
But there is one new study, I agree.
DAVE ASPREY: This is that whole epidemiology
versus understanding the core mechanisms of life.
When we analyze the fats and we look at exactly what they're
made of, we're like, oh, those fats don't come from plants.
They don't come from animals.
They come from bacteria, which means
we've got a problem with bacteria in the gut.
So if you're eating sugar, you're eating these CAFO meats,
you're going to be causing that problem.
That said, if you want to have adequate testosterone
production, it's really helpful to have
some of these animal fats in your diet,
to have healthy membranes.
Because the bottom line is we actually
aren't made out of plants.
Like, if you look around, we are made out of animals
because we are animals.
We have a very long history of eating animals.
And I've looked a lot at monoculture habitat
And if you've ever seen what a field of
soybeans does to all of the animals that
are killed by tractors--
KIP ANDERSEN: They're there to feed cows.
DAVE ASPREY: I think vegetarians eat soybeans last time I
KIP ANDERSEN: 90% of all soy is fed to cows.
DAVE ASPREY: Hey, we're all in agreement.
Let's not do that.
JOEL KAHN: Agree.
DAVE ASPREY: But here's the deal, whatever plants you're
growing, keep in mind, I run an organic farm with very
high productivity per acre.
Guess what plants eat?
They eat dead animals.
They eat poop.
That's what it does.
So what we're doing to feed these vegan diets out
there is we're actually mining minerals.
We're about to run out, in 40 years, the stuff we
use to make fertilizer.
Or maybe we can get some from natural gas and put it back in.
But we are trashing the soil to make
what most vegans eat because there aren't
that many organic vegans.
Talk about-- yeah, I know.
It's kind of funny when science comes in.
So what happens here is literally bunnies, cute little
bunnies, turtles, mice, whole families,
tractors just come through and just take out
their whole thing.
You know, you've got to think about that
if you're going to eat a big grain bowl for lunch.
Because the net deaths per calories if I eat
one grass-fed cow per year is 0.7 deaths per year
unless the cow stepped on a frog in the front pasture
of my farm.
So what's going on here is that if you
want take care of the soil, you should have
animals shitting on the soil.
That's how it works.
JOEL KAHN: I thought we weren't allowed to use that word.
DAVE ASPREY: Oops.
JOEL KAHN: I asked before we started, if you can
google a word, can we say it?
And he said no.
DAVE ASPREY: There's an environmental argument,
and there's the study that shows it's
what's going on your bacteria, and also the fact that people
feel better on moderate protein.
One thing that's terribly missing from vegan diet
is collagen, which is the connective tissue that
makes your joints.
One of the things that makes my joints not hurt any more, even
though I thought your joints were supposed to always hurt,
is that your joints are made of collagen,
and I eat collagen again.
And this comes from animals.
There is no plant-based collagen.
So there's a great argument for this.
I'll also tell you there's a great argument
for eating a lot less grass-fed meat.
You don't need to have a huge steak.
The whole paleo thing, where it's all like,
carnivore-based is not a good way to live a long time.
It's a good way to get cancer.
But moderate amounts, particularly
of animal fat and some animal protein,
will make you feel better.
They'll give you more energy.
They'll make you look younger.
They'll make you live longer, and they
feed the plants the crap they need
so we can stop destroying large swaths of our environment
and our soil to feed cows that eat the wrong stuff
or to feed people who eat the wrong stuff, like grains.
JESSE MICHAELS: OK.
Let's give Kip a chance to respond.
KIP ANDERSEN: So that was hilarious.
So, science grass-fed beef, again and again,
it's about land use.
You cannot have any other animals share this land with
Yes, it is true.
DAVE ASPREY: I have a farm.
KIP ANDERSEN: OK.
Actually, this is a great--
How many acres are in your farm?
DAVE ASPREY: I have 32 acres.
KIP ANDERSEN: OK.
So 32 acres, how many sheep?
DAVE ASPREY: Right now, I have a half-acre with three sheep.
KIP ANDERSEN: A half-acre with three sheep.
DAVE ASPREY: And we rotate them around so they--
KIP ANDERSEN: So they eat lots of grass, which is land use.
So if we were to take his 32 acres,
and I was going veganic farming, which is how "Cowspiracy" ends,
I would blow away the production with veganic composting
and production, not only by 10, but probably 30--
if you have only three sheep not so much--
I'd grow around 10 times, probably 5 to 10 times
more food than you would.
Because we just had a meme on this on our "Cowspiracy."
We do it all the time.
You have a funnel of food.
A cow, for example, eats around 35, 50, 100 pounds,
depending on where it is, of how much food.
Day after day after day, it drinks 25 gallons of water
every single day.
Add that up over 18 months, and guess what you get?
You funnel down, funnel down, funnel down.
You get some of that goes back in the soil.
At the end of the day, the animal flesh you get
is around 250, 300 pounds.
Out of thousands and thousands of food.
So what it is, it's called inefficiency.
And then the other question too is, again, how efficient
can you be in the--
what was the last part?
There's one other part about that.
But I guess the goal is to be as efficient as we can with--
not all of us have 35 acres.
If you want to break it down to five acres,
say we're all given five acres, you
try putting one sheep on that, and I'll put mine,
I'll leave the sheep out, and see who grows more.
There's not even a remote comparison.
And know what?
I don't have to kill the sheep.
Can I film some time you killing the sheep
with your own bare hands?
Can I film that?
DAVE ASPREY: You can actually film me taking it down
on a bandsaw, because I actually know how to do that.
KIP ANDERSEN: I can film that?
DAVE ASPREY: Sure you can film that.
As long as you take a bite when we're done.
JOEL KAHN: He won't TMAO if you do, though.
I just have a quick, just again, we got to bounce back quick.
Collagen is important.
And this is obscure, but it's also
you guys are young, healthy, you want great skin, great hair,
great nails, taking biotin and all this stuff.
You know, you don't need to eat animal collagen,
because our human body makes collagen. It's a miracle.
You need, however-- this is an interesting historical point,
but it's relevant today.
There are only four species on the planet
don't make collagen--
Guinea pigs, bats, gorillas, and humans.
We're the only four mammals on the planet.
My dog and my cat make collagen. Humans can't.
We lost an enzyme in our liver.
We are required-- and Linus Pauling, double Nobel Prize
winner taught this in his biochemistry research,
we have to eat a ton of vitamin C--
tada, fruits and vegetables, fruits, and vegetables.
We need a ton of leucine, which comes from the legumes
primarily and almonds to some degree.
If you're a plant-based eater and you eat properly
as the rainbow, whole food, close
to nature, minimally processed diet,
you make all the collagen you need.
There's actually a very cool sign, where your earlobe gets
a crease, and it shows you're collagen weak and collagen
It's a marker of heart disease.
It's less common amongst those that eat tons of plants.
So you can make collagen. You don't
have to eat animal collagen. You don't have to drink bone broth.
You need to eat healthy to maintain it.
I will say I'm rather proud of this
because, again, as you're growing up in a world that's
going to be congested, and dirtier, and more
polluted, and more [INAUDIBLE],, I can calculate it online
in my 40 years of being a plant eater,
I've saved 15,000 animals and 16 million gallons of water.
So when I have my eulogy told, which
I hope by that time will be 45,000 animals and 60,000
gallons of water that, you know, each of us,
if you know the story about throwing a starfish back.
You know, we can make one little difference in the world.
And you know, being sensitive to your carbon footprint
in every way, in your car, in your bike, in your walking,
but in your food, which is the biggest segment of your carbon
emission as a human on the planet.
You know, it can be just one personal vote for sensitivity,
humanity, and for doing good.
And if we spread that word, which
Google can do probably better than anybody out there,
you know, we can make a difference.
Because air pollution is choking your guys' health off.
You just had a fire up north and you knew it firsthand,
but these things are important.
JESSE MICHAELS: OK.
I want to move on.
We can follow up with you slaughtering a lamb for Kip.
But we focused up until now on kind of animal protein, fats,
carbs sugar, sodium.
I kind of want to just do a little rapid fire
and hear what they're good for and why
you might think they're bad, either in excess or just
We'll also follow up with your version of "War"
by Edwin Starr.
JOEL KAHN: They're all saying, what song is that?
AUDIENCE: We know it.
JOEL KAHN: Yes.
The wise people in the audience.
JESSE MICHAELS: Go for it.
DAVE ASPREY: So fats.
Certain kinds of fats are great for building cell membranes.
Many other kinds of fats are good for making energy
because they have more electrons in them than sugar
or carbohydrates, and you want high octane fuel in the body.
And other fats are good for causing inflammation,
which is a problem.
So different fats, different things.
Sugar, generally, you don't eat a lot of sugar,
It's just not good for you.
And we have abundant evidence that it messes up your gut
biome, which also then increases your risk of heart disease,
your risk of cancer, and your risk
of every other degenerative disease ever,
and it'll make you get hypergly-bitchy.
It's just bad news.
The next one after that was sodium.
It turns out that you're probably not
getting enough salt in your diet right now.
The more stressed you are, the more salt you need.
The current recommendations from the government
around salt intake are actually so
low that they raise heart attack risk
through an enzyme called renin.
The Russian space program just figured out some amazing things
like if you a high salt diet, you can eat 25% more calories
without gaining weight.
Not that you necessarily want to do that.
But I'll tell you that if you're stressed,
you're not getting enough sleep, you're traveling a lot,
you're staying up late, you're getting bad light in your eyes,
all the stuff that increases biological stress,
you're in a bad relationship, eat more salt
if your body wants you to.
But make it sea salt that has balanced minerals in it
versus industrial salt that has aluminum in it,
because you really don't want aluminum.
JESSE MICHAELS: Carbs and sugar.
JOEL KAHN: You did sugar.
DAVE ASPREY: I did say sugar.
But carbs, carbs in general, I am not an anti-carb person.
I'm an anti-sugar person.
And I think the right kinds of carbs
that aren't wrapped in mother nature's defense system
is a useful thing to do.
That's what I'll tell you white rice is better than brown rice.
People say, oh, brown rice, but fiber.
And they forget the 80 times more arsenic
that's in brown rice versus white rice.
The covering on grains triggers all sorts of immune system
problems in people.
In fact, wheat has 26 different compounds
you can be allergic to that are not gluten.
And we can test for those today.
So these tend to trigger problems in people.
Can you survive a famine on grain?
Will you live with the highest performance, best feeling life
where you give the most back to the world
you have to give if you eat a lot of whole grains?
I don't believe so.
JESSE MICHAELS: Kip, Dr. Khan.
KIP ANDERSEN: I'll let him--
I mean, he's the MD.
JOEL KAHN: Are you sure?
You got to remind me.
Small, medium amounts.
But we've gone crazy with sugar, and we eat too much.
And of course, we should always distinguish.
We're talking sugar in fruit, go for it.
500,000 people just studied out of China,
first author their name Du.
More sugar you eat, the lower your chance
of developing type 2 diabetes if it's in fruit.
And if you have two type diabetes
and you eat sugar in fruit, you live longer.
That's totally different than Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Mountain Dew,
So enjoy the sweet of nature, but don't
add in the amazing amounts of added sugar, refined sugar,
of all types.
Give me another.
We have to be specific.
Talking about refined carbs as you're
going to find in pastries.
One of the worst foods you can eat in your life are pastries.
That's been known since the '50s, '60s, '70s, '80s.
Perfect bomb of refined flour, refined sugar,
added, usually processed, poor quality non-organic oils.
Don't eat donuts, the number one food
you'll see at the doctor's office.
Typically, don't eat processed pastries.
Don't eat you know Ding Dongs and HoHos and all the rest.
You know, we're talking carbs like a bean carbs,
like a squash, carbs like a piece of lettuce, which
all food is a combination of fat, carbs,
and protein to some extent.
Go for it in my world.
And then give me another.
JESSE MICHAELS: Sodium.
JOEL KAHN: Sodium.
If you're a tribesman in South America called the Yanamamo,
you need a few hundred milligrams of sodium a day.
Current recommendations now are 1,500 to 2000.
Your average blood pressure is around 100.
The number one killer in the world is hypertension.
Number one killer in the world according to a study
called the Global Burden of Disease Studies.
Because again, it's everything in excess.
Americans are eating too much of everything.
Too much refined sugar.
Too much refined flour.
Too much refined salt. Too many refined and poor quality fats.
I'm fine with whole food fats.
I agree, there's populations that
eat high percentage of fats and are healthy.
There's populations like Okinawa and this tribe in the Bolivian
called the Chimane, they eat very little fat,
and they're healthy, but don't eat the refined crap.
So I'm more towards a low salt diet,
recognizing this number one killer.
And was there one more?
Are we done?
JESSE MICHAELS: No, we're done.
JOEL KAHN: OK, good.
KIP ANDERSEN: The only thing I'll
add to that is just, again, kind of personal experimentation.
I used to do marathons being vegetarian.
I was a hardcore cheese-aholic.
And I really thought protein, because I
ate eggs and cheese, and then just with "What the Health?",
there was going to impart more of the story arc with me.
It was the first time I did a full marathon being vegan.
And then I purposely never owned a bike or swam on a lap
in my life, and I wanted to train for an Ironman
within 90 days.
And by doing nothing different, other than--
this brings in of carb--
I did carb overloading.
Carb loading, and then getting rid
of all those inflammatory things,
like dairy, especially, and eggs and protein,
I increased my training half the time.
I bettered my marathon by 23 minutes.
And then I did the Ironman--
I've never done this-- within 90 days.
And that was mainly a lot from carbs.
That's my experience with carbs.
So it's maybe not all the times.
I don't do that now.
But I think there's a time and place, not only
like, who you are, but what are you doing at this time?
Are you trying to build muscle?
Are you a long distance runner like Rich Roll?
Most of the ultra endurance runners,
they're mostly vegan, if not 100%,
they're getting more and more, so I guess it depends.
JOEL KAHN: They're renaming the NBA the NVA
because so many players have gone vegan this month.
Don't announce it yet.
It's just something I know inside.
JESSE MICHAELS: I want to give you guys
a chance to kind of disintermediate yourselves,
meaning that you guys, you know, believe certain things,
and you guys all have platforms, and people believe you when
you speak about these things.
JOEL KAHN: I have a pro-erection platform.
I wanna just put it right out there.
JESSE MICHAELS: But I'd love to get
kind of your process and your sources.
We hear a lot of terms like peer reviewed, like meta studies.
Where should we look?
You mentioned PubMed.
How should we look at these things?
How do we look at them for ourselves?
Can you empower us?
DAVE ASPREY: Well, we're here at Google.
And we went through this long period of time
where you had to go to a guy in a white lab coat
or "Reader's Digest."
Those are your two sources of information.
JOEL KAHN: "Prevention" magazine.
DAVE ASPREY: Right.
And so we really didn't have the ability to do this.
You guys remember microfiche readers?
Like, when I was in seventh grade,
we had to go look up like, these incredibly stupid ways
of finding stuff.
So everything was hidden.
And you could never find a million other people
doing what you do to find something that works.
And we've solved that problem over the last 20 years,
and Google's been one of the biggest companies to do that.
So there's two places to go.
One is you can look at PubMed.
You can find almost any academic research
ever about the specific thing that you're looking for.
And the second thing to do is find other people
who are doing something similar or trying to solve
the problem you want to solve.
Biohacking is the art and science
of changing the environment around you and inside of you
so you have full control of your own biology.
So if your job is to get swole, you're
going to talk to people who are doing that.
And if your job is to live past 180,
you're going to talk to people who are doing that.
But you can find these communities.
And then you find these amazing things
that should not be possible if the dogma is true.
And that's what happened to me.
I did the vegan thing.
I did the excessive exercise thing, and it didn't work.
And I found, wow, there's all these anti-aging people who
meet 10 minutes from Google and have for 25 years.
I'm chairman of this group now.
They're looking at these things.
They're studying, will it work?
And yes, we talk with vegans.
We talk with non-vegans.
Begins We bring them in for lectures.
But the bottom line is community is
what's going to help you the most, because the community has
the power to go out and do the searching for you
and to bring up interesting things.
Well, wait, how can this paper exist if we all believe this?
I'm going to run an experiment.
And if you find that your life was radically
different after doing that, there is truth in that,
because the number one part of the scientific method
And then you can form a hypothesis,
and then you can test it.
You have a community.
You can test it now that's never existed before.
And that is the most amazing thing right now.
JESSE MICHAELS: Kip?
KIP ANDERSEN: Wanna go first?
JOEL KAHN: I would say you go to PubMed.
You know, P-U-B-M-E-D dot com.
Some of you may have been there.
So of you may not.
The National Library of Medicine,
26 million medical articles.
Different than a blog.
Different than a newspaper.
But a tremendous range of quality.
Negative studies often don't get published.
You do a study that grass-fed beef does or doesn't
do something, and it's negative, you're unlikely to publish it.
It may damage your chances of getting further grants.
Egg board, dairy board, meat board.
There is a green board, a broccoli board.
I mean, they don't have any money.
But you do need to read.
The first place I go usually is the end of article,
where was the funding from?
And that's true at the Harvard School of Public Health,
and that's true overseas.
And sometimes, it's not disclosed.
And with all that muck, that's where you go, nonetheless.
We have 110 years of studies on nutrition and atherosclerosis.
Somewhere amongst that, we can come to that core, you know,
eat minimally processed, mainly close to the ground,
and largely plants as a rallying point that
is likely to favor your health and prevent disease.
And yes, there's inconsistencies,
and there's disappointments when we
learn that three guys at Harvard in the 1960s
took some money to favor the idea that sugar
was bad for your health and not disclose that.
But that's three researchers in 50 years in all.
So we're doing OK with medical science.
There's people that really care and really are ethical.
Not everybody's in a bad place, so I trust science.
I really do.
KIP ANDERSEN: What's happened, especially
after the film comes out, people have
these articles that come out.
And eventually, we're going to get
ready to do one specifically that goes over each point,
because they're very easy to refute the rebuttals.
And a lot of them--
I was just on "Doctors," and they're all attacking us,
and they're literally quoting studies for the egg industry
that's put out by the egg industry.
And this happens time and time again,
where they have these studies that they're refuting.
They're like, what about this?
What about this?
And it's like, did you actually see the film?
This is a huge part of the film.
Follow the money.
Follow who it went to.
Don't look at things at face value, surface level.
You have to go deeper, deeper, deeper, deeper.
And that's what the film did.
And I think it was kind of sidetracked,
but "Cowspiracy" just a few years ago, a lot of the facts
were refuted then, and I learned a lot from that.
Just in two, three years fr now, everything pretty much
in that entire film is common knowledge for the most part.
And the same with "What the Health?"
And looking back in history, 10, 20, 30 years from now,
there's one way this can go.
And this one way is the plant-based diet,
not only for again, for the planet,
for your health, mind, body, and spirit
is the way to go, and to search through these murky studies
and find the ones that are truly independent.
And again, I guess brought up again,
rather than like biohacking, really bioharmonizing yourself
with the planet, not to have everything come towards you
and fix me, myself.
How about, how can I integrate myself with the entire planet
so I'm at one with it, and so I feel
liberated because of a much bigger self than just
my own self?
And I think that's the goal too.
It's 7 billion people, and how do we all fit in?
What can I do to become part of the greater whole of us?
JESSE MICHAELS: I wanna get questions from the audience.
Does anybody have any questions?
JOEL KAHN: Don't be shy.
Good, good, good.
AUDIENCE: What are your thoughts on the supposed
estrogenic effects of soy?
JOEL KAHN: I'll jump in as a medical doctor.
I personally think that eating-- well, I don't personally think.
The science says if you eat organic soy in place of meat,
you favor the chance you won't develop
breast cancer for women.
And if you've had breast cancer, you won't develop recurrence
of breast cancer, because there's natural estrogen.
And the very, very weak activity that's in plant-based estrogen
like the soybean--
and only organic, because thank you Monsanto,
we've largely destroyed that crap in terms of quality.
But it's out there.
Your soy milk I noticed in your coffee shops
are Pacific brand, organic soy.
it's a good choice.
But so to replace--
again, CAFO, where they're administering extra hormones
to get that chicken to grow fast, that cow to grow fast,
make more money.
You're better off by far eating soy than that type of food.
You get into higher quality, there's no head to head study.
Soy is a very safe food if you don't have a food allergy
or food intolerance.
I wouldn't eat it three meals a day.
It can have something that's called goitergenic thyroid
But you don't see that in natural populations in Japan.
I mean, it's a condiment to your stir fry
and the rest of your diet.
KIP ANDERSEN: This is the one thing--
you know, we wanted to make our film 90 minutes,
and was the last thing we cut out.
And I was like, oh god, someday we'll do a director's cut.
Because that was a huge marketing, essentially-- again,
by theory, not 100%.
Well, we do know it was put out by the Weston Price.
And this big scare, right when soy milk started taking off,
and cow milk started going down, all of a sudden this thing
Soy is bad because of, ironically, estrogen.
What is in cow's milk?
Its growth hormone fluids.
Whether it's organic or not, it's
supposed to make a small calf grow into a big, thousand pound
cow as fast as it possibly can.
So it's so ironic, because they're saying
it's about the estrogen part.
It's phytoestrogen. When the real concern
is the estrogen and the growth hormones from cow's
milk and cheese and dairy.
That's the one that you have to be worried about.
And that was what?
25, 30 years ago.
I've been vegan 10 years.
For four years, I did not eat soy because of that.
And then I found out it it was put out by the Weston Price,
and it's like, thank God.
And it's very true.
If you do eat soy, organic, that is
one thing, because it is heavily pesticide.
But soy is incredibly good for you,
and there's study after study after study on that.
And I'm bummed we put that out, because that was a big thing.
JOEL KAHN: On the other hand.
DAVE ASPREY: My wife is a medical doctor
from the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm.
When I met her, she drank soy milk.
She was infertile.
My very first book was how to turn fertility back
on with 1,300 studies on it.
When we took her off soy milk, she
was able to gain weight that she'd
been unable to gain her entire adult life drinking soy milk.
Soy contains phytic acid, which inhibits your ability
to absorb minerals from the other vegetables you might eat.
So if you want to eat soy, you should pair it
with a nice piece of grass-fed steak.
JOEL KAHN: But you won't get colon cancer,
because we know phytates resist the development of colon
So you pick your choice.
DAVE ASPREY: The point there also about soy, aside
from the estrogenic effects, which are present.
And the estrogen that's in soy doesn't fit in your estrogen
receptors properly, so it basically clogs them up
so your own natural estrogen activities don't work.
You can use soy, for instance, at certain times of the month
to help with PMS symptoms because it has an effect.
But to take it sort of all willynilly,
I am highly skeptical of that being a good choice.
The other problem is that fermented soy
is the second highest histamine food after fermented fish
Histamine is actually a neurotransmitter.
It also causes allergies and things like that.
So there are lots of people who go on the Bulletproof Diet,
and I'm like hey, maybe you should
stop eating even the gluten-free soy sauce for a little while
and see what happens.
And what happens is, I don't get hives anymore.
So if you eat soy and you get some brain fog later
in the day, you get profoundly tired,
it may not be estrogen. It may be
one of the other many problems with soy, aside
from the environmental destruction caused
by mowing down beautiful fields and forests to plant soybeans
to feed people low-quality crap.
JOEL KAHN: You don't eat natto?
Fermented natto is not on your diet.
DAVE ASPREY: No, natto is actually the one form of soy
that I do recommend.
JESSE MICHAELS: We've got one question in the back.
I can repeat the question.
AUDIENCE: Just to alleviate the situation,
this question's not about soy.
DAVE ASPREY: Darn.
AUDIENCE: A huge thanks for Kip because your films definitely
changed my and my girlfriend's life.
So as a vegan or vegetarian, you definitely
have a situation you're with your friends,
and suddenly your friend becomes a plant activist.
And I was wondering, in this kind of situation,
how do you usually go about it and can you
share your experience of friends who eat lots of meat
and they got irritated about--
KIP ANDERSEN: What was the first part of that?
JOEL KAHN: Their friends become activist.
JESSE MICHAELS: The question is around social situations
where-- he was influenced by your film.
He went vegan.
Maybe you're at the dinner table and you have
to explain that to meat eaters.
KIP ANDERSEN: Well, I went vegan, because part of it
Health was the last part.
What's interesting, I used to never go
to barbecues, especially in the first years of when
I was vegan, because everybody does
these very immature things, kind of like, where you say,
oh, if you're gonna eat animals, I'm
gonna eat two times animals.
Or the whole soy thing, and this and that.
And then, especially with the animals,
I'm gonna eat three times as many animals.
Every time, it's such a thing.
If you tell someone to not eat sugar, that's like,
well, you know, it's interesting stuff.
But if you tell someone to not eat animals because
of certain things, it triggers someone back,
and these immature things around when they're 8 to 12 years old.
And that is when we become jaded to that animal
as another living being, of exactly
that you would never in a million years,
if you're 12 years old, look a cow, look a sheep, in the eye
and slit his throat.
So it's beyond-- it's a whole other level of betrayal,
not only within yourself, but you're saying, wow,
are you saying I'm not in line with who truly morally am?
And that's a deep question not only for yourself.
Are you saying my parents are bad because they fed me
this way, or my culture's bad?
So it's a very deep thing.
That's why it's such a sensitive topic
because at the core level, human beings are compassionate,
And that's why at the core level,
whether 5%, 10% of the core of who we are inside,
We're meant to love other beings and all of the planet's
other life forms.
And that's the big reason why we're
in the situation where we are, because we've
gone away from that.
So the only thing I say is people
is the reason why I made these films is just hey,
watch this funny film called "Cowspiracy,"
or this comedy called "What the Health?"
And you know, I mean, that's all you can do, is try to educate.
Because it is hard, because it's such a deep-lying seeded
contradictory with their own selves.
DAVE ASPREY: There's something that happens
any time you go on a new diet.
And this happened when I was raw vegan.
It happened when I discovered like Atkins in the early '90s.
Like, all right.
Like, lost half this fat, and the other half
won't budge on that diet, and things like that.
You go through this like, oh, my god, I have the solution,
and I feel a moral obligation to tell everyone.
But the real moral obligation you
have, whether you're like, a radical keto dieter--
like that's the latest like, you know, carb shaming,
or the vegan side of things, where, OK, this is it.
Like, this is what's working for me right now.
The best thing you can do, no matter
what your diet is, and you just discovered it, is shut up
JOEL KAHN: I agree.
DAVE ASPREY: And when you do that,
the people who are open to learning
will ask you why you're doing what you're doing,
and you'll have the best conversations of your life.
And if instead you're like, I'm going
to tell you why I'm doing what I'm doing,
people are like, could you, you know, STFU.
Like, we're not here for that.
We want to do what we're going to do.
So my path over the last 20 years of discovering this stuff
has been to learn that, look, when I'm eating,
I don't judge other people for what they eat.
Like, I'm assuming they're doing it.
If they want to know why I'm doing what I'm doing,
I'll tell them, but I never offer it first.
And given that I'm well-known now, they usually ask.
But even back when I was doing what I was doing like,
why, you're working at a computer security company.
Like, why did you carry a stick of butter to lunch with you?
I'm like, OK.
Now it's an opening.
And so if you just politely order
the plant-based diet that you want to order
and you eat it without emotion and without judgment,
you'll find that you'll have the best conversations,
and you'll probably swing the people who
are your target, the ones who are open
versus angering the ones who are not open and are really
not your target.
KIP ANDERSEN: I agree 100%.
Now, I actually go to a barbecues.
I don't say anything.
I used to say something.
In the first couple of years, so passionate.
And now I don't say anything, and it kind of comes to you,
or they'll ask something exactly.
So again, whatever you do.
And just kind of like, lead by example
and really be present, but don't say anything.
So now I purposely go to barbecues, and just my presence
there, like bringing a veggie burger, the new Beyond Burger.
Having that there.
Then you're like, it's a little minimal form
of passive activism.
And I don't say anything.
You know, if they come to me.
But it's very true.
Because it does not work.
I tried for 10 years.
It doesn't work.
DAVE ASPREY: Like, I go to barbecues.
I don't eat the barbecue.
I'm like, well, it's probably fed a bunch of crap.
Like, it's not good quality meat.
And you shouldn't burn your meat on open fire.
I can show you all the science for that.
So, it's like, I'll have the salad.
And when I go out to eat, I'd go to Joel's restaurant.
I'll go to a vegan restaurant because you're
going to get less crap, as long as you throw away the tofu
and stuff, at a vegan restaurant than you
are at the typical American feedlot restaurant.
But just by making those choices, and then saying,
I'm going to do this not that, and you can say it's about me.
It's about what works for my biology, and it's OK.
You can eat whatever you want to eat,
but we can just have a really like, productive dialogue
versus like, shaming.
JESSE MICHAELS: I think on that, two more questions,
although that was very nice olive branch.
AUDIENCE: So then, for those of us
that can't cook for every meal, let's say
we're going out for our birthday dinner
or going out to a restaurant, what
is going to the safest thing at a restaurant, then,
that isn't like, plant-based.
Or you're going out with a group,
you want to kind of be easy.
JOEL KAHN: I've been eating in restaurants--
JESSE MICHAELS: Dr. Khan, Let me just
repeat the question real quick for the listeners out
there, viewers out there.
So it's basically, you're in a group situation,
you're going to a restaurant.
Maybe they ask you about dietary restrictions.
Maybe they don't.
You want to kind of be easy and eat with them.
How do you do that while adhering to the healthiest diet
JOEL KAHN: Just quickly, there's an amazing website been
around 20 years, happycow.net, if you're
looking for that healthy restaurant,
whether you're in Moscow, St. Petersburg, Istanbul,
or Mountain View.
So that's a great resource when you're out of town.
It's, as far as I know, noncommercial.
Maybe it' will list every whole food,
or list every similar market and restaurant.
Two, is I go right--
if I'm in an Italian restaurant, the contorni,
you know, the side dishes.
I put together spinach, root garlic,
with a braised grilled cauliflower.
Whatever it is.
That's a nice safe place to go.
And ask questions.
Food allergies are everywhere, so it's
not at all odd to even the chef to come out of the kitchen.
I do own a large restaurant in Detroit
besides being a cardiologist.
I mean, that should be encouraged because nut
allergies are life-threatening.
So get the food you want out of a restaurant.
And if you got to tell your friends,
I'm doing the Beyonce diet, or doing the NBA diet,
or I've developed whatever allergy--
I mean, allergies everybody respects nowadays
if you don't want to go into the whole conversation.
DAVE ASPREY: I always just go in and I say,
I want a plate covered in vegetables.
And I go, actually, guys, I mean covered in vegetables.
That doesn't mean three pieces of asparagus.
And then, they're like, really?
Like, no, I mean that.
And then I'll look on the menu.
If there's a wild caught fish, I'll do it.
And yes, I'm concerned about overfishing.
I'm also concerned about eating.
And I'm hoping that we'll do some more work on that.
But in the meantime, if you just get the plate of vegetables,
here's the trick.
They always put canola oil in almost every restaurant,
and they tell you it's olive oil,
because they cut the olive oil with canola.
You tell them it has to 100% olive oil,
because if I get canola oil, I have seizures
right there on the floor.
And then you always get the real oil.
JOEL KAHN: That actually is true.
DAVE ASPREY: Yeah, and for me, I just say,
could you cook it in butter?
JOEL KAHN: He won't have a seizure.
But if you say that, they will be very careful
not to put what you don't want.
DAVE ASPREY: Otherwise, most well-meaning waiters
and waitresses will give you bad fats
because they don't know it.
And oftentimes, the cook doesn't even
know until they turn the big jug of industrial oil around.
It is 25% canola.
I didn't know.
So just avoiding bad fats is critically important
if you want to feel good.
But literally, you can always say a plate of vegetables.
And that's enough.
I bring my own fat to pour on the vegetables
to get enough fat to feel good.
But maybe you do that, maybe you don't.
That's the trick.
And if they're feeding industrial meat,
I'm right with these guys.
Don't eat industrial meat.
Like, it will take away years from your life,
and it's bad for the planet.
And that said, if you can get a little bit of good quality
protein, do it.
If not get some protein once a day
that's really high quality protein, which probably
didn't come from vegetables.
JESSE MICHAELS: Anybody else?
Go for it.
AUDIENCE: Yeah, thanks a lot for talking about the big issues
like how we can harmonize with life,
and how we can listen to science.
Dr. Kahn, I wanted to ask if you could give us
a little more recommendations than just going to PubMed.
That's such an open-ended thing.
I'm particularly thinking of like, Dr. Greger's website
or other consolidated sources where
we don't have to figure it all out on our own.
JESSE MICHAELS: Question as, is other verified medical sources
outside of just PubMed, Dr. Kahn.
JOEL KAHN: Yeah.
It brings up a little bit of a sensitive issue.
Can a doctor who chooses a plant diet,
a vegan diet not be objective?
And I've already declared it.
When I see that meat will reverse my patients
heart blockage, I will be obligated to recommend meat.
Just that science doesn't exist.
The only diet for atherosclerosis reversal
are plant diets, naturally low in added fats and oils.
And until that changes, that's what I'll recommend.
So there is a website, nutritionfacts.org.
I don't think that would be received well
in the ketogenic diet and some other movement.s
but if you watch "What the Health?"
and you're looking for some more information,
yes, that's always a recommendation.
Where else would you go if you want some--
because I really do like Dr. Greger's work,
because the medical references are there.
And you can search for others.
There usually aren't others.
These are the ones that exist.
I don't think he's got a bias.
It's just the way the literature goes.
PCRM.org, Physician Committee of Responsible Medicine,
there's a lot websites.
So if you get into the plant-based movement,
I mean, there's all kinds of websites.
But they're basing their website usually
on science that's in PubMeds.
KIP ANDERSEN: Highly, highly recommend nutritionfacts.org
for something simple.
It's a video.
It's always very fast, always sourced very well.
You can type in anything, anything,
and it'll come out in a very succinct, two-three minute way,
Sourced, sourced, sourced.
It's a great, great resource.
JESSE MICHAELS: Cool.
Thank you guys so much for coming.
Really appreciate it.
Let's give it up for them.