IT'S ABOUT HISTORY, POLICY
AND IMPACT.
A NEW PERSPECTIVE ON CURRENT
AFFAIRS, BRINGING EXPERIENCE AND
INSIGHT, STABILITY AND
SCHOLARSHIP TO THE URGENT
MISSIONS OF TODAY.
IT'S ABOUT OUR PAST THE PRESENT
-- PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE.
FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA
POSSIBLE OR CENTER, THIS IS
"AMERICAN FORUM." DOUG: WELCOME
BACK TO THE MILLER CENTER'S
AMERICAN FORUM.
FOR DECADES AFTER THE PRESIDENCY
OF AMERICAN -- OF RICHARD NIXON,
AMERICA REMAINS FASCINATED WITH
THIS FIGURE.
HE HAD EXTRAORDINARY
ACHIEVEMENTS IN AMERICAN POLICY
AND WAS HUGELY POPULAR AMONG
VOTERS ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND
ONCE APPEARED TO BE A MAN
DESTINED FOR HISTORICAL
GREATNESS.
HE CAME TO REPRESENT ALL THAT WE
MOST FEAR IN DEMOCRACY, A LEADER
CARRIED AWAY BY HUBRIS,
INTOLERANCE AND A THIRST FOR
POWER THAT PROPELLED HIM AND THE
ENTIRE COUNTRY TO ENGAGE IN
SHAMEFUL AND ILLEGAL ACTIONS
THAT STILL HAULED US ALL EVEN
TODAY.
OUR GUESTS IN THIS EPISODE ARE
THREE OF THE NATION'S LEADING
SCHOLARS ON THE NIXON PRESIDENCY
WHO DEVOTED YEARS OF WORK
EXAMINING THOUSANDS OF HOURS OF
SECRET RECORDINGS OF THE NIXON
OVAL OFFICE.
KEN HUGHES IS THE AUTHOR OF
"CHASING SHADOWS."
HE ALSO HAS FORTHCOMING "FATAL
POLITICS."
LUKE NICHTER IS A HISTORY
PROFESSOR AT TEXAS A&M
UNIVERSITY.
HE IS A CO-AUTHOR OF "THE NIXON
TAPES, 1971-1972." JOHN
PRODUCE'S IS THE AUTHOR OF THE
WHITE HOUSE TAPES, EAVESDROPPING
ON THE PRESIDENT.
HE IS A HISTORIAN AND SENIOR
FELLOW AT THE NATIONAL SECURITY
ARCHIVE AND HAS WRITTEN MORE
THAN 20 BOOKS ON PRESIDENTIAL
POWER AND NATIONAL SECURITY.
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
IT IS GREAT TO HAVE YOU.
WHAT A FASCINATING ARRAY OF
BOOKS THAT YOU BRING TO US
TODAY.
BEFORE WE START INTO OUR
CONVERSATION ABOUT THE NIXON
PRESIDENCY AND ABOUT THE TAPES
THAT WERE MADE DURING HIS
PRESIDENCY, LET'S LISTEN TO ONE
SAMPLE OF THOSE RECORDINGS SO
THAT WE CAN HEAR THE VOICE OF
NIXON AND IN THIS CASE, IT IS
NIXON AND KISSINGER DISCUSSING
WHAT WILL COME TO BE THE FINAL
RESOLUTION OF THE AMERICAN
INVOLVEMENT IN VIETNAM.
LET'S LISTEN TO THE VOICES.
DESTROY HIM."
THAT IS A REALLY OMINOUS LINE.
LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT MOMENT AND
HEAR FROM YOU THREE ABOUT WHAT
WAS HAPPENING IN THAT CONTEXT.
LET'S TALK MORE BROADLY ABOUT
VIETNAM AND THE NIXON
INVOLVEMENT IN PERPETUATING AND
BRINGING IT IN AND -- BRINGING
AN END TO VIETNAM.
KEN: THIS IS A PIVOTAL MOMENT IN
NEGOTIATIONS OVER THE VIETNAM
WAR.
OCTOBER 6, 1972.
AS THE DAY BEFORE AND MAKE A
-- HENRY KISSINGER WILL FLY TO
PARIS TO MEET WITH THE NORTH
VIETNAMESE.
THE NORTH VIETNAMESE ARE GOING
TO SETTLE ON NIXON'S TERMS.
TO GET SET IN -- DID GET SOUTH
VIETNAM READY FOR THIS, THEY
SENT ALEXANDER HAIG TO BRIEF THE
SOUTH VIETNAMESE GOVERNOR --
GOVERNMENT.
THE PRESIDENT OF SOUTH VIETNAM
WAS IN TEARS, SAYING THIS WILL
DESTROY OUR GOVERNMENT AND KEEP
US GOING FOR A WHILE, BUT AT
SOME POINT I'M GOING TO HAVE TO
COMMIT SUICIDE.
THIS TAPE ILLUSTRATES WHAT IS
MOST VALUABLE ABOUT THE NIXON
TAPES IN THAT, YOU GET TO HEAR
NIXON AND KISSINGER SAY THINGS,
ADMIT THINGS THAT THEY WOULD
NEVER PUT IN WRITING, THAT THEY
DENIED IN THEIR MEMOIRS.
BOTH OF THEM SAID THEY DID NOT
PURSUE ANY DECENT INTERVAL EXIT
STRATEGY FOR VIETNAM.
THIS TAPE AND OTHERS SHOW THAT
THEY REALIZED THEY WERE MAKING
AN AGREEMENT THAT WOULD ONLY
KEEP SOUTH VIETNAM GOING FOR A
YEAR OR TWO AFTER NIXON WITHDREW
THE LAST TROOPS.
IT REALLY ILLUSTRATES THE TIME
MACHINE QUALITY OF THE TAPES,
ESPECIALLY NIXON'S TAPES BECAUSE
HE HAD A VOICE ACTIVATED
MECHANISM THAT BASICALLY TURNED
ON EVERY TIME HE OPENED HIS
MOUTH BETWEEN FEBRUARY 1971 AND
JULY 1973, GIVING US THIS ONCE
IN HISTORY ACCOUNT, A
NEAR-PERFECT RECORD OF THE
PRESIDENCY, AT LEAST FROM THE
OVAL OFFICE PERSPECTIVE.
DOUG: THAT PHRASE THAT YOU REFER
TO, THE DECENT INTERVIEW --
INTERVAL WAS THE IDEA THAT THE
U.S. COULD GET OUT OF SOUTH
VIETNAM AND THINGS COULD HOLD
TOGETHER LONG ENOUGH THAT IT
WOULD NOT APPEAR AN
EMBARRASSMENT OR CATASTROPHIC
LOSS ON THE PART OF THE UNITED
STATES.
THAT WAS THE REAL NIXON
STRATEGY, EVEN THOUGH LATER IT
WAS DENIED.
THE OFFICIAL VERSION OF EVENTS
IS A BIT LIKE THE OFFICIAL
VERSIONS OF EVENTS ON IRAQ.
THAT WE WERE LEAVING BEHIND A
NEW STABLE DEMOCRACY.
THAT THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO HOLD
OFF THINGS LIKE ISIS OR THE
ISLAMIC STATE.
KEN: COMPELLING ANALOGY.
DOUG: INTERESTING HOW SIMILARLY
THINGS HAVE TURNED OUT.
JOHN: I HAVE TO DISAGREE WITH
ONE THING CAN SAID -- KEN SAID.
THAT THE VIETNAMESE WERE
SETTLING IN ON AMERICAN TROOPS.
I THINK THE REASON THAT
KISSINGER AND NIXON HOLD THE
OPINION THAT THE TERMS ARE GOING
TO DESTROY SOUTH VIETNAM BECAUSE
THEY GOT TO THIS AGREEMENT
AGREEING THAT NORTH VIETNAMESE
TROOPS WOULD NOT WITHDRAW FROM
SOUTH THE ENEMIES TROOPS TO
MATCH AMERICAN TROOPS LEAVING
VIETNAM.
KEN: THAT'S TRUE. BUT IT IS
AMERICA'S TERMS AS OF MAY OF
1971, WHEN KISSINGER NEGOTIATED
--
JOHN: THE NEGOTIATION ONLY
PRECEDED AFTER THE -- ONLY
PROCEEDED AFTER THE AMERICANS
MADE THAT CONCESSION.
KEN: THAT'S WHAT I MEAN BY
NIXON'S TERMS.
THE CEASE-FIRE IN PLACE ALLOWING
THE NORTH VIETNAMESE TO CONTINUE
TO STAY IN SOUTH VIETNAM.
A CONFESSION THEY MADE IN FALL
OF 1970 AND COMPLETELY -- A
CONCESSION THEY MADE IN 1970.
DOUG: WHAT THAT CONCESSION WAS
WAS THE UNITED STATES IS GOING
TO PULL ITS TROOPS OUT OF THE IT
-- OUT OF ALL OF VIETNAM.
MOST OF THE TERRITORIES WERE IN
THE HANDS OF SOUTH VIETNAM.
EXPLAIN THAT ARRANGEMENT.
JOHN: THE SPECIFIC PURPOSE OF A
-- IDENTIFYING THOSE TWO TERMS.
THE RESPONSE WAS NORTH
VIETNAMESE TROOPS MUST LEAVE
SOUTH VIETNAM WHEN THERE IS NO
DEAL.
KEN: WHEN NIXON MADE SPEECHES,
HE TALKED ABOUT ALL THE OUTSIDE
FORCES LEAVING SOUTH VIETNAM.
DOUG: IN FACT -- WHEN IN FACT
-- THERE HAS BEEN THIS
CONVERSATION WITH THE PREMIER OF
VIETNAM IN WHICH HE HAD SAID "I
HAVE TO COMMIT SUICIDE BECAUSE
OF THIS."
HE'S NOT TALKING METAPHORICALLY
REALLY.
HE IS SAYING EVERYTHING IS GOING
TO COLLAPSE AND I'M NOT GOING TO
SURVIVE THIS.
LUKE: TIMELY LESSON TO
PRESIDENTS DURING WARTIME.
IT'S A LOT EASIER TO GET INTO
WAR THAN IT IS TO GET OUT.
THE OTHER THING I THINK WE SEE
IN CONVERSATION IS THAT THIS IS
A RICHARD NIXON WHO HAS BEEN TO
CHINA AND HAS ALREADY BEEN TO
MOSCOW.
WHATEVER VALUE VIETNAM HAD AS A
NEGOTIATING CHIP IS NOW EXPIRED.
AT THIS POINT, RICHARD NIXON
JUST WANTS TO GET OUT OF
VIETNAM.
JOHN: HE WANTS TO GIVE
NEGOTIATING TIPS.
WHEN HE GOES TO THIS TRIP IS THE
PLAN TO BOMB HANOI.
WHICH HAS BEEN SECRETLY WORKED
UP BY THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF.
DOUG: THAT IS HIS LAST AMERICAN
THREAT -- THAT IS THIS LAST
AMERICAN THREAT TO THE NORTH
VIETNAMESE?
JOHN: THAT'S RIGHT.
SO THE TWO COULD FEEL BETTER
GOING ALONG WITH THE AGREEMENT.
DOUG: THE IDEA THAT A PRESIDENT
AND SECRETARY KISSINGER, THESE
INDIVIDUALS WHO I THINK -- THESE
QUITE BRILLIANT MINDS IN TERMS
OF GEOPOLITICS OF THAT ERA, THE
IDEA THAT THEY COULD BE IN THIS
CALCULATION OF THIS RESOLUTION
THAT PEOPLE WE PROPPED UP ALL
THIS TIME WERE INEVITABLY GOING
TO COLLAPSE.
COULD YOU IMAGINE A SIMILAR
CONVERSATION FROM OTHER SOME --
FROM SOME OTHER ENGAGEMENT?
IT IS HARD TO IMAGINE THAT BEING
CONSIDERED A DEFENSIBLE
STRATEGIC DECISION.
KEN: NIXON AND KISSINGER DENIED
IT.
IT IS CLEAR FROM THE TAPES NIXON
KEPT THE WAR GOING THROUGH 1972
BECAUSE HE WAS AFRAID SAIGON
WOULD FALL AFTER HE WITH DREW
AMERICAN TROOPS.
YOU CAN HEAR NIXON AND KISSINGER
AS EARLY AS SPRING OF 1971 SAINT
WE WILL GET OUT.
-- SAYING WE WILL GET OUT.
NIXON SETS OUT A WINDOW
SOMEWHERE BETWEEN JULY OF 1972
AND JANUARY OF 1973.
THEY TIME WITH DRAWLS SO THEY
WILL REACH A CLIMAX THAN AN
NIXON STICKS THE LANDING.
HE GETS COMBAT TROOPS OUT
SHORTLY BEFORE THE ELECTION.
HE GETS THE FINAL BILL IN 1973.
NIXON AND KISSINGER ARE STILL
BRILLIANT GEO-POLITICIANS.
WHAT IS HIDDEN FROM VIEW IS THAT
THEY ARE WORKING GEOPOLITICS
WITH AN EYE TOWARD ITS AFFECT ON
DOMESTIC POLITICS.
DOMESTIC POLITICS WINDS UP
WAGGING THE DOG.
LUKE: THE PARALLEL AND THE
LESSONS OF VIETNAM AND HOW WE
APPLY THEM TO RECENT EVENTS.
I THINK ONE THING RICHARD NIXON
REALIZED, I THINK WITH THE NIXON
TAPES YOU CAN CHERRY PICK
SOMETHING TO SUPPORT ALMOST ANY
THEORY.
I THINK THAT WHEN YOU LOOK AT A
SUFFICIENT SAMPLE SIZE, THERE
ARE A LOT OF PARALLELS THAT I
SEE.
SOME PEOPLE SAY, COULD WE HAVE
WON THE WAR? COULD NIXON HAVE
ALTERED STRATEGY?
WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF
SUCCESS OR VICTORY IN VIETNAM?
YOU LOOK AT IRAQ AND
AFGHANISTAN.
I THINK WE HAVE YET TO SEE ANY
POLITICIAN AND ARTICULATE WHAT
IT MEANS TO A BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN
THOSE PLACES.
WE KNOW WHAT FAILURE LOOKS LIKE.
IT IS ANYTHING BUT CLEAR WHAT
VICTORY OR SUCCESS WOULD HAVE
LOOKED LIKE.
DOUG: I THINK THAT IS AN
INTERESTING POINT.
WHAT THE REAL DEFINITION IS AS
OPPOSED TO, I THINK WE HAVE AN
INSTINCTIVE UNDERSTANDING OF
WHAT IS THE HIGH POINT.
SUCH AS MISSION ACCOMPLISHED IN
IRAQ AND THE BIG INSTITUTIONS OF
THE DESIGNATED ENEMY HAVE BEEN
BROKEN, THEIR FORCES HAVE AN
SCATTERED.
IT FEELS VICTORIOUS BUT IT IS
ANYTHING BUT A SECURE AND
LASTING VICTORY AND MILLIONS OF
MILES AWAY FROM AN ACTUAL
RESTORATION OF A NEW KIND OF
SOCIETY WHERE PEOPLE ARE WORKING
TOGETHER AGAIN.
WHICH WAS SUPPOSEDLY THE AIM IN
VIETNAM AS WELL.
JOHN: THIS TIES IN WITH
SOMETHING I'VE BEEN THINKING
ABOUT A LOT WHICH IS THE
DISAPPEARANCE OF TAPING AS A
FORM OF RECORDING INFORMATION
AND HISTORICAL KNOWLEDGE.
IT IS BEEN SUPPRESSED BY NEW
FORMS OF COMMUNICATION.
NEW MECHANISMS.
THE NEW FORM OF AUDIO TAPES.
THE NEW WHITE HOUSE TAPES ARE
GOING TO BE THE RECORDS OF VIDEO
TELECONFERENCES THAT HAPPENED
BETWEEN AMERICAN PRESIDENTS AND
OFFICIALS OR PEOPLE FROM FOREIGN
COUNTRIES.
IN THE CONTEXT WHICH YOU ARE
JUST TALKING ABOUT HERE, MY
UNDERSTANDING IS THAT GEORGE
BUSH USED TO HAVE WEEKLY
TELECONFERENCES WITH KARZAI, THE
PRESIDENT OF AFGHANISTAN AND
THEN THOSE STOPPED WHEN BARACK
OBAMA BECAME PRESIDENT OF THE
UNITED STATES.
HERE IS A FORM OF EVIDENCE THAT
IS GOING TO TELL US A BIT ABOUT
WHAT THE AMERICAN FEELING WAS OR
AMERICAN POLICY WAS IN THIS NEW
ERA.
IS GOING TO STOP TOO.
DOUG: PEOPLE IN THE WHITE HOUSE
DON'T SEND EACH OTHER E-MAILS
ANYMORE.
IT MAKES YOU WONDER WHETHER WE
SHOULD CONSIDER ADOPTING A
STANDARD THAT SAYS EVERYTHING
MUST BE RECORDED BUT THAT ALL OF
THAT INFORMATION IS SHIELDED FOR
SOME PERIOD OF TIME.
IT CANNOT BE OBTAINED OR USED
FOR PROSECUTION.
YOU ESSENTIALLY COULD ASSERT
THAT AND SAY THAT FOR 25 YEARS,
UNTIL 25 YEARS AFTER PRESIDENCY,
THIS INFORMATION IS SEALED AND
THAT IT BECOMES AVAILABLE FOR
HISTORIANS.
JOHN: THAT ALREADY EXISTS.
THE PRESIDENTIAL RECORDS ACT
AFFIRMS A PERIOD OF 12 YEARS.
DOUG: IT DOES NOT REQUIRE THE
RECORDING IN THE FIRST PLACE.
JOHN: THAT IS TRUE.
IT IS ALSO THE COURTS, LEGAL
CASES.
THE E-MAIL FOR EXAMPLE, WHITE
HOUSE E-MAIL WAS NOT ON THE
TABLE UNTIL MY GROUP, THE
NATIONAL SECURITY ARCHIVE TO THE
WHITE HOUSE TO COURT AND GOT
AFFIRMATIVE JUDGMENT THAT YES,
THESE E-MAILS ARE PUBLIC RECORDS
AND THEY ARE SUBJECT TO
DECLASSIFICATION.
THAT HAS OPENED UP THE
POSSIBILITY OF HAVING A
CONVERSATION ABOUT HILLARY
CLINTON'S E-MAIL.
DOUG: WHAT'S ALSO AMAZING TO ME
ABOUT ALL THESE KINDS OF THINGS.
FOR OPENING UP HILLARY'S E-MAILS
FOR US.
THANK YOU.
WHATEVER HAPPENS, IT IS ON YOU.
YOU CAN SEE IT TO SOME DEGREE,
EVEN IN THE NIXON TAPES AS
, CAUTIOUS AS PEOPLE BECOME
ABOUT THESE THINGS AND AS OFTEN
AS THEY SAY, I DON'T EVER SEND
E-MAILS ABOUT THIS OR ABOUT THAT
BECAUSE I DON'T WANT ANYONE TO
SEE THAT, WE STILL E-MAIL
PASSWORD LEFT AND RIGHT TO ONE
ANOTHER WHEN OUR WIFE NEEDS
THEM.
IF YOU ARE A COP IN FERGUSON,
MISSOURI, A CITY OFFICIAL, YOU
SEND A MESSAGE CRACKING JOKES
ABOUT A NEW BLACK PRESIDENT.
IT IS AMAZING EVEN WHEN WE KNOW
WE ARE CREATING PUBLIC RECORDS
THAT WILL BE AVAILABLE TO PEOPLE
WANT THEM PEOPLE STILL WILL SAY
, THE MOST AMAZING THINGS.
JOHN: THAT IS VERY EVIDENT IN
THESE TAPES FROM THE WHITE HOUSE
FROM THIS 1960'S -- FROM THE
1960'S AND 1970'S.
MCGEORGE BUNDY AND DEAN RUSK
AND OFFICIAL AFTER OFFICIAL
ASKED, DID YOU GUARD YOUR
LANGUAGE BECAUSE THERE WAS A
TAPING SYSTEM?
DID YOU KNOW THAT WAS TAPING
SYSTEM?
THEIR RESPONSE WAS, I DID NOT
KNOW IN THE BEGINNING BUT AFTER
A WHILE I KNEW.
AT FIRST I GUARDED MYSELF BUT
AFTER A WHILE I FORGOT ABOUT IT.
LUKE: WHEN THE RECORDINGS WERE
TAKING PLACE, THEY HAD AN
EXPECTATION THEY WOULD REMAIN
PRIVATE INDEFINITELY.
CLEARLY NIXON MUST'VE BEEN
CHOREOGRAPHING SOME OF THESE
CONVERSATIONS.
MAYBE, BUT THE TAPES ARE MORE
DAMAGING TO HIM THAN ANYBODY
ELSE.
ON TOP OF THAT, IT IS CLEAR
AFTER A WHILE THAT HE FORGETS
TAPINGS EVEN TAKE PLACE.
WHICH LOCATIONS, WHICH OF HIS
OFFICES.
IT IS HIGHLY UNLIKELY THAT HE
DID CHOREOGRAPH THESE.
THE SYSTEM WAS INSTALLED AND
OPERATED BY THE SECRET SERVICE
AND JUST RAN EVERYDAY.
DOUG: LET'S GO BACK TO VIETNAM.
KEN WROTE A BOOK, TALKING ABOUT
BEFORE NIXON WAS EVEN REALLY
PRESIDENT.
THE CHENAULT AFFAIR.
JOHN: THE OCTOBER SURPRISE.
DOUG: THE NIXON CAMPAIGN IS
SENDING THE MESSAGE TO THE NORTH
VIETNAMESE AT THAT POINT, DON'T
SETTLE, DON'T REACH A DEAL WITH
THE CURRENT DEMOCRATIC
ADMINISTRATION.
HOLD OFF, YOU'LL GET A BETTER DO
-- DEAL FROM ME.
THAT SOUNDS A LITTLE BIT LIKE
WHAT IS JUST HAPPENED WITH A
GROUP OF U.S. SENATORS IN THE
UNITED STATES.
AS KEN PORTRAYS IT, THIS IS A
PRIVATE CITIZEN AND WHAT COULD
ARGUABLY BE A CLEAR VIOLATION OF
THE WAGNER ACT.
A CLEARLY TREASONOUS ACT,
UNDERMINING THIS POLITICAL
NEGOTIATION.
AS A RESULT OF ITS EXCEEDING AND
-- SUCCEEDING IN UNDERMINING AT
THE COST OF THOUSANDS OF
ADDITIONAL AMERICAN LIVES
BECAUSE THE WAR WAS EXTENDED.
DO YOU BY KEN'S INTERPRETATION?
LUKE: TO ME, WHAT LACKS IN TERMS
OF SMOKING GUN IS NIXON'S DIRECT
INVOLVEMENT.
WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT NIXON'S
INVOLVEMENT WAS, WHEN WAS HE
ISSUING ORDERS, WE CAN ASSUME
JOHN MITCHELL WAS INVOLVED.
TO ME, WHAT IS LACKING IS
KNOWING EXACTLY WHAT NIXON SAID
AND WHAT HE WANTED TO HAPPEN.
KEN: THAT'S WHAT'S FRUSTRATED --
THAT IS WHAT FRUSTRATED LBJ.
HE SUSPECTED NIXON WAS BEHIND IT
AND CHENNAULT IMPLIED NIXON WAS
BEHIND IT WILL STOP IS THE
EXPLANATION THAT MAKES THE MOST
SENSE BECAUSE THE SOUTH
VIETNAMESE TOOK THESE MESSAGES
VERY SERIOUSLY.
WHILE LBJ SOMETIMES IMPLIED WHEN
HE WAS TALKING TO EVERETT
DIRKSEN OR NIXON HIMSELF THAT HE
HAD THE GOODS, HE REALLY DIDN'T.
NOT ON NIXON.
DOUG: THERE IS A PARTICULAR
RECORDING IN WHICH JOHNSON IS
ASCRIBING THIS DO NIXON
DIRECTLY.
OFFERING THE POSSIBILITY THAT
THIS MUST BE GOING ON
INDEPENDENT OF NIXON HIMSELF.
THE MESSAGE IS THAT CANDIDATE
NIXON NEEDS TO CURB HIS
OPERATIVES BECAUSE IT IS
TREASON.
IF THIS IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING,
IT IS TREASON.
NIXON DOES NOT SAY, I HAVE NO
IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
MR. PRESIDENT.
LUKE: ONE OF THE MYSTERIES OF
THIS EPISODE, IF ONE POLITICAL
PARTY HAD EVIDENCE OF TREASON
AGAINST THE OTHER, THE IDEA
INSTEAD OF USING THAT FOR
POLITICAL GAIN IN AN ELECTION
YEAR, BUT NO, IT IS FOR THE
BETTER OF THE COUNTRY THAT WE
SEAL THIS.
I DO NOT BUY THAT.
IF THE TABLES WERE REVERSED AND
REPUBLICANS HAD EVIDENCE OF
DEMOCRATIC TREASON, THEY WOULD
PUT THEM TO GOOD USE.
KEN: THE DAY BEFORE THE
ELECTION, LBJ GETS HIS SECRETARY
OF STATE, NATIONAL SECURITY
ADVISOR AND SECRETARY OF DEFENSE
ON THE PHONE.
THE CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR
HAS A STORY.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE, CLARK
CLIFFORD, ALL ADVISING NOT TO
BECAUSE WE DO NOT HAVE THE GOODS
ON NIXON HIMSELF AND IF WE PUT
IT OUT WE COULD DESTROY HIS
PRESIDENCY BEFORE IT BEGINS.
THEY WERE WORRIED THAT NIXON
WOULD ENTERED OFFICE AS A
CRIPPLED PRESIDENT.
IT IS INTERESTING TO HEAR GUYS
WHO ARE DEMOCRATIC PARTISANS
SAYING WE SHOULD HOLD OFF ON
THIS BECAUSE IT DOES TOO MUCH
DAMAGE AND WE DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH
PROOF.
DOUG: CAN WE IMAGINE SUCH A
THING IN CURRENT TIMES?
DECIDING FOR THE GOOD OF THE
COUNTRY NOT TO DESTROY THE OTHER
SIDE?
THAT IS UNTHINKABLE.
JOHN: CLARK CLIFFORD WAS A BIG
PARTISAN BACK IN THOSE DAYS.
I WAS PART OF THE U.S.
DELEGATION IN HANOI IN 1997,
MEETING WITH THESE FORMER
VIETNAMESE OFFICIALS AT A
CONFERENCE ABOUT THE MISSED
OPPORTUNITIES OF THE VIETNAM
WAR.
WHEN THE QUESTION OF PEACE DEAL
CAME UP, THE NORTH VIETNAMESE
POSITION WAS THAT WE HAD MADE A
BIG MISTAKE BECAUSE THE SAME
DEAL THAT WE ACHIEVED IN 1973
WAS ON THE TABLE IN 1968.
DOUG: IT IS FAIR TO SAY THAT THE
WAR COULD'VE ENDED AT THAT POINT
ON THE SAME TERMS AND YOU COULD,
MAYBE THIS WOULD BE ARTIFICIAL,
BUT IT IS NOT GINNING UP A DRAMA
TO SAY THAT THE LIVES LOST
BETWEEN THAT MOMENT AND THE
ACTUAL END OF THE WAR COULD VERY
LIKELY HAVE BEEN, THOSE LOST
LIVES COULD'VE BEEN PREVENTED.
JOHN: THOSE SPECIFIC TERMS --
THEY WERE SAYING THEY WERE OPEN
TO THAT TYPE OF AGREEMENT.
LUKE: I AM NOT SURE WHAT TO
BELIEVE.
THERE IS EVIDENCE THAT
CONFLICTS.
THERE ARE STILL RECORDS WAITING
TO BE OPENED ON THIS.
DOUG: WHAT DOES THIS BODY OF
EVIDENCE TELL US ABOUT THE
PRESIDENCY?
IS THIS A REFLECTION OF HOW MOST
PRESIDENCY'S WORK OR THE ISSUES
THAT EVERY PRESIDENT CONFRONTS
IN TERMS OF INFORMATION THEY
HAVE IN ANY MOMENT?
THEIR ABILITY TO CONTROL OR NOT
CONTROL EVENTS HAPPENING IN THE
WORLD?
WHAT DOES THIS TELL US ABOUT THE
REALITY OF THE PRESIDENCY?
KEN: I THINK LISTENING TO NIXON,
JOHNSON AND KENNEDY, THE
PRESIDENCY ON THE TAPES IS A
VERY REACTIVE THING.
THE DAY'S HEADLINES PLAY A LARGE
ROLE IN THE PRESIDENT'S
ATTENTION.
IT IS A VERY POLITICALLY
ORIENTED THING.
ALL THE PRESIDENTS ARE CONCERNED
WITH HOW THEY ARE DOING AT THAT
PARTICULAR MOMENT.
THEY'RE CAPABLE OF MAKING
LONG-TERM PLANS AND THEY STICK
TO THEM.
THEY ARE CONSTANTLY GETTING NEW
THINGS THEY HAVE TO RESPONSE TO.
THEY'RE ALWAYS WORKING WITH ONLY
PARTIAL INFORMATION WITH ISSUES
THEY HAVE PARTIAL EXPERTISE ON.
IT IS FUNNY LISTENING TO NIXON
TALK ABOUT ECONOMIC MATTERS AND
SAYING TO ADVISORS, I DON'T
REALLY UNDERSTAND THIS BUT I
UNDERSTAND THAT IF PRICES GO UP
THIS MUCH, WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE
HERE AND WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT
THAT.
LUKE: RICHARD NIXON IS A STRANGE
MAN.
PEOPLE LIKE THAT DON'T TYPICALLY
REACH THE PRESIDENCY.
SOMETIMES I WONDER, DO WE KNOW
THAT OR THINK THAT BECAUSE IT IS
TRUE OR BECAUSE WE HAVE ALL
THESE RECORDINGS OF HIM THAT WE
DO NOT HAVE OF ANYONE ELSE.
IT IS SOMETHING WE DON'T HAVE
THE ANSWER TO.
I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS IT
SHOWS TO ME, I AGREE WITH KEN
THAT YOU SEE NIXON CONSTANTLY
REACTING AND HE DOES NOT HAVE
THE INFORMATION HE NEEDS TO MAKE
CRITICAL DECISIONS.
HE IS PRESSING FOR MORE
INFORMATION.
HE OFTEN IS ACTING UP ON
INCOMPLETE INFORMATION.
I THINK THE PRESIDENCY, WE SEE
THE BEST EXAMPLE, IS AN
IMPOSSIBLE JOB.
WE HAVE LEADERS AT THE HIGHEST
LEVEL.
THAT IS A TIMELESS LESSON ABOUT
THE PRESIDENCY.
THE AMOUNT OF INFORMATION HAS
INCREASED OVER TIME IN THE LAST
40 YEARS.
THE PRESIDENT MAKES DIFFICULT
DECISIONS EVERY DAY IN A MOMENT
WITH INCOMPLETE INFORMATION.
KEN: WHATEVER ELSE THEIR
DIFFERENCES, NIXON, JOHNSON,
KENNEDY, EISENHOWER AND FRANK
-- FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT SECRETLY
RECORDED CONVERSATIONS.
BY THE STANDARDS OF NORMAL
BEHAVIOR, IT IS ODD.
DOUG: A COMMONALITY BETWEEN ALL
OF THEM WAS A SENSE OF THEIR OWN
GREATNESS AND A PLACE IN
HISTORY.
WANTING THERE TO BE A RECORD
FROM WHICH THEY COULD SHAPE THAT
VERSION OF HISTORY THEMSELVES.
PRESIDENTS ALWAYS SEEM TO IN THE
ABSTRACT, BELIEVE THERE SHOULD
BE A RECORD OF MY PRESIDENCY
BECAUSE IT IS GOING TO BE SO
GREAT.
AS THINGS UNFOLD AND GET MORE
COMPLICATED THEY SEEM LESS
, ENAMORED OF HAVING TAYLOR
BRANCH COME INTO THE WHITE HOUSE
TO TALK TO THEM EVERY NIGHT WHEN
THINGS BECOME MORE COMPLICATED.
JOHN: AFTER THE ELECTION, LBJ --
HAS HIS ORIENTATION MEETING WITH
MR. NIXON AND THEY GET A SIDE IN
PRIVATE AND LBJ TELLS HIM, YOU
OUGHT TO HAVE A TAPING SYSTEM.
YOU'LL FIND IT GREAT FOR
HISTORICAL PURPOSES.
THAT WAS EXACTLY THE ARGUMENT HE
USED.
THEN, MR. NIXON ENTERED THE
WHITE HOUSE AND ORDERED THE
TAPING SYSTEM THAT LBJ HAD HAD
RIPPED OUT AND THE SECRET
SERVICE TOOK IT OUT.
FAST-FORWARD TWO YEARS, RICHARD
NIXON GETS HIS OWN SYSTEM
INSTALLED.
DOUG: INTERESTING.
AFTER PRESIDENT OBAMA WAS
ELECTED, AT THE TIME I WAS A
REPORTER AT THE WALL STREET
JOURNAL AND HAD DONE A GOOD BIT
OF COVERAGE ON THE 2008
CAMPAIGN.
I MADE A PROPOSAL -- ATTENDED TO
-- ATTEMPTED TO MAKE A PROPOSAL
TO THE WHITE HOUSE THAT I WRITE
A SERIES OF BOOKS ABOUT THE
OBAMA PRESIDENCY AND SOMEHOW
BECOME A FLY ON THE WALL IN THE
WHITE HOUSE WITH AN AGREEMENT
THAT I WOULD NOT WRITE ANY OF
THIS UNTIL AFTER THE PRESIDENCY
HAD ENDED.
ESSENTIALLY I WAS SAYING I WOULD
QUIT MY JOB AT THE WALL STREET
JOURNAL, I WILL BE ABLE TO FIND
HIM -- BE ABLE TO FINANCE THIS
FOR EIGHT YEARS.
IT DID NOT GO ANYWHERE, BUT ONE
OF THE THINGS WE CAME UP WITH, I
FOUND OUT THERE WAS A CLASSMATE
OF PRESIDENT OBAMA'S WHO HAD
MADE A SOMEWHAT LESS ELABORATE
OFFER OF SOMETHING SIMILAR THAT
THE OBAMA FOLKS HAD AGREED TO.
THIS GUY, AND ESTABLISHED
ATTORNEY, ABANDON HIS PLACE IN
LIFE, MOVED TO WASHINGTON, D.C.,
MOVED HIS FAMILY THERE IN
ANTICIPATION OF SOMETHING ALONG
THESE LINES AND ABOUT TWO YEARS
INTO THE PRESIDENCY, I BELIEVE
IT IS THE CASE THAT HE NEVER YET
HAD A MEETING WITH THE PRESIDENT
AND THE WHOLE THING FELL APART.
IT UNDERSCORES THIS IDEA THAT AT
THE BEGINNING, WHEN THERE IS A
GREAT SENSE OF HISTORY AROUND
IT, IT OPENS THE IDEA TO A TOTAL
ACCOUNT OF WHAT IS HAPPENING.
AS REALITY SETS IN, IT IS HARDER
TO LIVE WITH THAT.
LUKE: WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THE
TAPING SYSTEM WAS IN PLACE, IF
I'M MEETING WITH YOU, YOU HAVE
YOUR NOTETAKER, I HAVE MY
NOTETAKER, WE BOTH HAVE A
RECORD.
WHAT THE TAPING SYSTEM ALLOWED
NIXON TO DO IS SAY, LET'S HAVE
AN INTIMATE MEETING, NO STAFF
PRESENT.
NIXON HAS THE ON THE COPY OF THE
MEETING.
THAT IS WHY THE RICH THINGS
ABOUT THE NIXON TAPES IS WE HAVE
A NUMBER OF MEETINGS.
SUCH AS NIXON AND BREZHNEV IN
THE TAPE IN MANY CASES IS THE
1973.
ONLY RECORD WE HAVE OF THE
MEETING.
DOUG: THERE SEEMS TO BE OF YOU
THAT NIXON DID SOME VERY BAD
THINGS BUT REALLY MAY BE WHAT HE
DID WAS NOT THAT MUCH WORSE THAN
A LOT OF OTHER PRESIDENTS IT IS
JUST THAT THERE WAS THE
COVER-UP.
THAT IS WHAT HE WAS REALLY
ENGAGED IN.
AND IN THE END HE WAS SOMEONE
TRYING TO DO THE RIGHT THING.
NOT THAT EXTRAORDINARY IN TERMS
OF THE BAD ACTIONS HE WAS
ASSOCIATED WITH.
HE JUST GOT CAUGHT.
A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO AT TIMES
HAVE ESPOUSED SOME SORT OF A
VIEW.
DO TAPES IN ANY WAY BEAR UP THAT
DEPICTION OF NIXON?
JOHN: I THINK THE TAPES SHOW A
PERSON WHO WAS ACTIVELY ENGAGED
IN A PURPOSEFUL EXERCISE OF
POWER TO GAIN ENDS HE HAS
DECIDED ARE THE ONES HE WANTS.
A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THIS ACTING IS
ACTUALLY THE FREEDOM OF
INFORMATION ACT.
THE FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT
TODAY, THE PROVISIONS OF LAW
THAT REQUIRE GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
TO RELEASE INFORMATION, WERE
ACTUALLY INSTITUTED BY RICHARD
NIXON.
THE REASON THAT THEY EXIST WAS
BECAUSE MR. NIXON WANTED TO TAR
JOHN F. KENNEDY AND HIS BROTHER
ROBERT UNTIL ROBERT WAS DEAD AND
THEN HIS BROTHER TED AFTER THAT
WITH THE ASSASSINATION OF NGO
DINH DIEM.
HE THOUGHT HE COULD ACHIEVE THAT
BY FORCING THE CIA TO RELEASE A
SERIES OF RECORDS.
HE THOUGHT HE COULD ADD DO THAT
BY GOING AFTER CASTRO IN THE A
OF PIGS.
THE CIA REFUSED TO GIVE UP THESE
RECORDS, AT WHICH POINT MR.
NIXON ISSUED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER
WHICH PUT IN PLACE A SYSTEM FOR
MANDATORY DECLASSIFICATION OF
GOVERNMENT DOCUMENTS.
THE PURPOSE FOR THAT WAS TO
FORCE THE CIA TO GIVE HIM THE
INFORMATION TO GO AFTER THE
KENNEDYS.
AND WE KNOW THIS BECAUSE HE
TALKS ABOUT IT ON TAPES.
LUKE: I THINK WHERE NIXON WAS
DIFFERENT WAS THE CREATION OF
THE WHITE HOUSE PLUMBERS.
THAT WENT BEYOND JUST RESEARCH
TEAMS OF KENNEDY AND JOHNSON.
HE INTERNALIZED THE KIND OF
OPERATIONAL CAPABILITY IN THE
WHITE HOUSE THAT PRIOR TO THAT A
PRESIDENT WOULD USE OR ABUSE.
PUTTING THAT IN THE WHITE HOUSE
WHEN THINGS WENT WRONG, THE
PERSON WHO HAVE TO TAKE THE
BLAME WAS RICHARD NIXON.
I THINK THAT IS WHAT SETS THEM
APART FROM PREDECESSORS.
KEN: THE THING THAT BOTHERS ME
ABOUT TRYING TO DECIDE WHETHER
NIXON IS ESPECIALLY BAD OR MORE
OF THE SAME, HE'S THE ONLY ONE
WE GOT THE DATA FOR.
THE A GUY WE HAVE THESE TAPES
ON.
I HAVE TO GIVE IT A BIG I DON'T
KNOW.
LUKE: THE QUESTION I AM ASKED A
LOT IS, LET'S FORGET WATERGATE
HAPPENED.
WHERE DOES NIXON STAND IN THE
PANTHEON OF PRESIDENTS?
IT IS A DIFFERENT DISCUSSION.
I THINK IT STILL WOULD HAVE BEEN
A CONTROVERSIAL PRESIDENCY.
YOU HAD EXTENSION OF THE WAR ON
CAMBODIA -- THE WAR IN CAMBODIA.
IT WOULD'VE BEEN CONTROVERSIAL
WITHOUT WATERGATE.
IF YOU CAN PRETEND THAT DIDN'T
HAPPEN, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE DID
CHOOSE HIM TWICE.
EACH TIME THEY GOT SOMETHING
THAT SURPRISED THEM.
I THINK WE WOULD VIEW HIM A
LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY WITHOUT
WATERGATE.
DOUG: WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT
THAT, JOHN?
I WONDER IF YOU GUYS ARE BEING
OVERLY CLINICAL IN THIS
ANALYSIS.
JOHN: I'M ON THE SPOT, HUH?
I THINK THAT THE NIXON
PRESIDENCY WAS FLAWED.
I THINK IT WAS FLAWED
FUNDAMENTALLY BY THE CHARACTER
OF THE INDIVIDUALS.
I THINK THAT NIXON HAD CERTAIN
PURPOSES AND WE'VE TALKED ABOUT
SOME OF THEM.
WE HAVE NOT MENTIONED TOO MUCH
THE IDEA OF OPENING WITH CHINA
OR NEGOTIATING WITH THE
RUSSIANS.
NOT TO MENTORED SINGLE-PARENT
-- NOT TO MENTION SINGLE-PAYER
HEALTH INSURANCE IS SOMETHING HE
WAS STANDING FOR.
HE HAD POSITIVE POLICY
PRESCRIPTIONS THAT HE WAS
INTERESTED IN.
I ALSO THINK THAT THE FLAWS IN
CHARACTER AND THE POLITICAL
GAMESMANSHIP REALLY THAT HE
ENGAGED IN CHEAPENED AND
WORSENED THOSE OBJECTIVES AND
FINALLY DESTROYED HIS
PRESIDENCY.
DOUG: DO THE TAPES REFLECT ON
THE WIDELY HELD VIEW THAT THOSE
BEHAVIORS, IF WE PLAY ARMCHAIR
PSYCHOLOGIST, THAT THEY RELATE
TO HIS SENSE OF INSECURITY?
THIS EMOTIONALLY DAMAGED MAN
THAT LEADS TO SOME OF THESE
IMPULSIVE CONSPIRATORIAL ACTIONS
ON HIS PART.
DID THE TAPES GIVE US
AFFIRMATION OF THAT PROFILE?
KEN: I DON'T LIKE DOING
PSYCHOLOGICAL PROFILES.
I HAVE NO SKILL AT IT.
DOUG: ALL DO HAVE TO DO IS WATCH
"NCI."
KEN: WHAT I FIND IS THAT NIXON
GENERALLY HAS A RATIONAL
EXPLANATIONS.
SOMETIMES A CONSPIRACY THEORIST.
EVEN WHEN HE IS A CONSPIRACY
THEORIST, HE HAS SOME
INFORMATION THAT WORRIES HIM.
GENERALLY WHAT HE DOES IS
, INEXPLICABLE POLITICALLY.
HE IS A POLITICAL GENIUS AND THE
EXTENT THAT HE HAS GOOD
INFORMATION, HE CAN MAKE SOUND
DECISIONS.
HE MAKES UNSOUND DECISIONS WHEN
HE HAS THAT INFORMATION, SUCH AS
THE INFORMATION THAT THE
BROOKINGS INSTITUTION HAS A FILE
ON THE 1968 BOMBING HALT AND HE
DECIDES HE NEEDS THAT SO MUCH HE
IS GOING TO PUT TOGETHER A TEAM
THAT WILL BREAK IN AND GET IT.
HE WAS KIND OF RATIONAL TO BE
AFRAID OF SUCH A FILE, IF IT HAD
EXISTED.
DOUG: THE ORIGINS OF WATERGATE.
YOU ARE SAYING THAT THIS
INCEPTION OF THE WHOLE, THE
PLUMBERS BEGINS WITH NIXON
THAT THE BROOKINGS INSTITUTION
HAS A FILE THAT WOULD CONFIRM
HIS TAMPERING WITH THE
NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE NORTH
VIETNAMESE BEFORE HE BECAME
PRESIDENT.
WHAT IS YOUR VIEW ON WHETHER THE
LINE IS CLEAR -- A FEAR OVER
PHANTOM DOCUMENTS?
LUKE: YOU COULD ASK HISTORIANS
WHO SAY YOU HAVE TO GEORGE
WASHINGTON TO UNDERSTAND THIS.
DOUG: DON'T SAY THAT.
LUKE: NOT TRYING TO BE OVER
CLINICAL, WE'VE BEEN TALKING
ABOUT A PERSON'S CHARACTER AND
BEHAVIOR.
IT IS MORE COMPLICATED THAN
THAT.
I DO NOT THINK IT WAS AN EVENT
WE CAN POINT TO.
NIXON IS SOMEONE, NAME A MODERN
PRESIDENT WITH MORE LINEAR
TRAINING FOR THE OVER OFFICE.
-- THE OVAL OFFICE.
THE HOUSE, THE SENATE, EIGHT
YEARS UNDER EISENHOWER.
A LONG TIME TO FORMULATE HIS
POLICIES.
I THINK YOU SEE THE SEEDS OF
WATERGATE VERY EARLY ON IN THE
PRESIDENCY DURING A PERIOD THAT
WE DON'T HAVE TAPING, INCLUDING
THE MEETING WITH ELVIS PRESLEY,
PERHAPS THE GREATEST LOSS TO
HISTORY.
DOUG: THERE IS A PICTURE OF THAT
THOUGH.
LUKE: IF YOU GO BACK A COUPLE
YEARS EARLIER, YOU HAVE A
DOMESTIC INTELLIGENCE PLAN, THE
HOUSTON PLAN WHICH IS STILL
CLASSIFIED TOP SECRET TODAY.
YOU HAVE THE TRAIL AND OF FBI
PROGRAMS INVOLVING DOMESTIC
SURVEILLANCE AND INTELLIGENCE.
THE SEEDS WERE IN PLACE.
THE CREATION OF THE PLUMBERS
CENTRALIZED THOSE SEEDS AND
ULTIMATELY WERE NIXON'S
DOWNFALL.
JOHN: HERE IS WHERE PRESIDENTIAL
RECORDS ARE IMPORTANT.
WRITTEN BROADLY, NOT JUST
TALKING ABOUT TAPES.
THE RECORDS FOR THE NIXON
ADMINISTRATION SHOW THAT BEFORE
THERE WAS A TAPING SYSTEM, HE
WAS ALREADY ENGAGED IN A PROGRAM
OF SYSTEMATICALLY TARRIED DOWN
-- TEARING DOWN THE OPPOSITION
FOR THE 1972 ELECTION.
HE DID THINGS LIKE -- DOCUMENTS
FOR THIS EXIST.
THINGS LIKE INVITE HUBERT
HUMPHREY TO THE WHITE HOUSE,
SIT HUMPHREY DOWN AND TALK ABOUT
HOW HE REALLY NEEDED HUMPHREY'S
SUPPORT FOR NEGOTIATIONS IN
VIETNAM.
THEY WOULD AGREE ON WHAT
HUMPHREY COULD DO, HUMPHREY
WOULD GO OFF AND DO THAT AND
THEN NIXON ISSUED ORDERS TO HIS
MINIONS TO CUT DOWN HUMPHREY FOR
WHAT HE HAD JUST DONE FOR MR.
NIXON.
THIS ATTITUDE, THIS PURPOSEFUL
ACTIVITY PREDATES THE TAPING AND
THE PLUMBERS.
DOUG: WE STARTED WITH A
RECORDING OF KISSINGER AND
NIXON.
I HAVE THE IMPRESSION FROM WHAT
YOU GUYS HAVE WRITTEN THAT THE
PICTURE, THE IN THE ROOM PICTURE
OF KISSINGER WE GET FROM THE
TAPES IS DIFFERENT THAN THE
KISSINGER WHO IS DESCRIBED
HIMSELF IN PUBLIC STATEMENTS AS
-- HE SAID THAT THAT WAS NOT THE
CALCULATION AND THAT WAS NOT
RECOGNITION BEING MADE BY THE
NIXON ADMINISTRATION.
DO THE TAPES MAKE KISSINGER OUT
TO BE A PATHOLOGICAL LIAR?
KEN: THEY SHOW HIM TO BE AS
INVOLVED IN POLITICAL
CALCULATIONS AS NIXON.
HE CAN BE A SIMPLE LIAR.
DOUG: PERHAPS NOT PATHOLOGICAL,
JUST CONSISTENT LIAR.
LUKE: 3500 PAGES OF MEMOIRS.
HE IS TRIED TO DEBUNK THE TAPES.
IN HIS MEMOIRS, HE SAID THE
TAPES HAVE NO HISTORICAL VALUE.
HOW IS IT FAIR ONE PERSON KNOWS
THEY EXIST AND EVERYONE WAS
BEING SECRETLY RECORDED?
I CAN TELL YOU, BEHIND CLOSED
DOORS HE'S INTERESTED IN THE
TAPES.
YOU'RE SEEING A CHANGE AND -- A
CHANGE IN TONE AND THE LAST YEAR
OR SO.
NOW THAT MORE AND MORE OF THE
TAPES HAVE BEEN PUBLISHED AND
ARE IN THE HANDS OF THE PUBLIC I
, THINK THIS DEBATE OVER DOES
KISSINGER TAKE CREDIT FOR THIS
OR DOES NIXON TAKE CREDIT FOR
THIS OR THE BLAME, I THINK WE
HAVE LESS AMBIGUITY ABOUT THESE
QUESTIONS.
NOW THAT THE RECORDINGS ARE
BEING USED BY HISTORIANS IN
PUBLIC, HE CANNOT STICK TO THIS
STATUS QUO THAT HE WROTE 30
YEARS BEFORE THAT HAD -- THAT
THEY HAVE NO VALUE.
DOUG: I LOVE TO HEAR THE JUDGE'S
RESPONSE TO A DEFENDANT SAYING
IT IS NOT FARED TO USE THE TAPE
OF MY DUI STOP TO CONVICT ME
BECAUSE I DID NOT KNOW THE TAPE
IS BEING MADE.
JOHN: KISSINGER EMPLOYED UPPER
-- EMPLOYED A PLATOON OF
NOTETAKERS TO RECORD MEMOS OF
HIS TELEPHONE CONVERSATIONS
WHICH HE THEN PUT IN
ROCKEFELLER'S VAULT TO SHIELD
FROM U.S. RECORDS.
TALK ABOUT HILLARY CLINTON'S
E-MAILS, RICHARD NIXON'S TAPES,
HENRY KISSINGER DID THIS EXACT
THING.
THOSE PHONE RECORDS WENT INTO
ROCKEFELLER'S VAULT, OR SHIELDED
FROM THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES, WERE
KEPT OUT OF THE DECLASSIFICATION
SYSTEM FOR DECADES.
IT IS A COURT PROCESS SUING FOR
ACCESS TO THOSE TAPES THAT HAS
BROUGHT THEM TO THE LIGHT OF THE
PUBLIC.
DOUG: DID THEY ADD OR SUBTRACT
FROM CONDITIONAL BEST
DIMENSIONAL WISDOM ABOUT WHAT
THEY REFLECT ON?
JOHN: I WOULD SAY KISSINGER
APPEARS THE WAY HE WOULD LIKE TO
APPEAR.
THERE WAS A FUNNY ARTICLE IN A
MAGAZINE THAT WAS A SORT OF
WASHINGTON INSIDER TYPE OF
MAGAZINE WHICH WAS WRITTEN BY A
GENTLEMAN WHO WORKED FOR THE
STATE DEPARTMENT WHO WAS ONE OF
THE SCRIBES.
HE TALKS ABOUT HOW AT THE
BEGINNING, THEY HAD THIS SENSE
OF RESPONSIBILITY AND THEY WERE
WORKING SO HARD ON THE DEAD KEY
TO LISTEN TO THE CONVERSATIONS
AND RECORD WHAT THEY WERE
SAYING, BUT OVER TIME, AS
KISSINGER OR OTHER MANAGERS
WOULD COME TO THEM AND SAY THIS
RECORD NEEDS MORE HUMOR OR THIS
RECORD NEEDS MORE OF THIS.
THEY BEGIN TO THINK OF
THEMSELVES AS CREATIVE WRITERS
AND THEY ACTUALLY STARTED
WEARING JACKETS THAT HAD THOSE
ELBOW PADS.
LUKE: THE BOB HARVARD AND TAPES.
HIS RECORDED DIARIES.
-- BOB HALDEMAN TAPES.
WE'LL MAY HAVE NIXON TAPES FROM
1971 TO 1973.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT ANY TOPIC, YOU
HAVE TO COMPARE ALL THE
AVAILABLE EVIDENCE.
IT IS EASY TO TAKE ONE AND A
CHERRY PICK AND MAKE EVIDENCE
FIT YOUR NARRATIVE.
DOUG: LET'S TAKE SOME TIME TO
TALK ABOUT CHINA AND THE SOVIET
UNION.
THESE ACHIEVEMENTS OF THE NIXON
PRESIDENCY THAT MAY BE THE MOST
THE MOST POSITIVE THINGS
ACCOMPLISHED IN THAT TIME.
WHAT DO THE TAPES TELL US --
ABOUT THE OPENING TO CHINA.
WAS THE NIXON WHITE HOUSE IN
CLOSE CONTACT WITH MEMBERS OF
THE SENATE, LETTING THEM KNOW
ABOUT EVERYTHING IS GOING ON AND
INVITING THE CONGRESS, GOING
WITH THE PRESUMPTION WE NEED
CONGRESS TO SIGN OFF ON ANY SORT
OF ARRANGEMENT WITH CHINA?
IS THAT WHAT THE TAPES SHOW?
LUKE: IT'S POSSIBLE WE'VE GIVEN
NIXON TOO MUCH CREDIT FOR THE
OPENING TO CHINA.
THAT IS NOT TO TAKE AWAY FROM
THE ACHIEVEMENT BUT IT IS
BECAUSE, THE IDEA THAT WE
ESTABLISHED RELATIONS WITH THIS
NATION WE HAD NO CONTACT WITH
FOR OVER 20 YEARS, THE REASON
RELATIONS IMPROVED IS BECAUSE
THEY WANTED THAT TOO.
THE IDEA THAT WE GIVE THE CREDIT
TO NIXON AND KISSINGER SUGGESTS
THE CHINESE HAD NO ROLE.
WHAT THE TAPES SHOW IS THAT WHEN
ZHOU ENLAI'S UPON DIPLOMACY OR
MINOR TRADE AGREEMENTS THAT WERE
DESIGNED TO TEST THE POSSIBILITY
OF LARGER POLITICAL AGREEMENTS
TO COME, I THINK NIXON AND
KISSINGER ARE REPEATEDLY
SURPRISED BY HOW WELL THINGS ARE
GOING IN THE OVAL OFFICE.
THEY ARE THE ONES THAT ARE
SUPPOSED TO BE CONTROLLING THE
LEVERS OF POLICYMAKING, BUT
BECAUSE A LOT OF THE CHINESE
ARCHIVES AREN'T AVAILABLE, I
THINK THE STORY WILL EVOLVE OVER
TIME AND SHOW THE CHINA REALLY
TOOK THE LEAD AT KEY MOMENTS.
DOUG: AS OF GREAT CREDIT THAT IS
GIVEN TO NIXON NOT SO MUCH AND
INITIATION OF THE DISCUSSIONS
BUT THE WILLINGNESS OF A
PRESIDENT TO DO THIS, TO HAVE
ANY SORT OF ENGAGEMENT WITH
EITHER CHINA OR THE SOVIET
UNION.
THAT WAS THE MOMENT OF POLITICAL
CHARACTER ON THE PART OF NIXON
TO REALIZE THAT IT HAS TO BE A
CONSERVATIVE LIKE ME WHOSE WANT
TO GO AGAINST THE GRAIN, THAT IS
WHAT MADE IT A BRAVE ACT.
IS THAT PART OF THE STORY
LEGITIMATE?
JOHN: I THINK SO.
THIS GOES BACK TO WHAT WERE
TALKING ABOUT EARLIER ABOUT
HAVING GOOD OBJECTIVES GOING
INTO THE WHITE HOUSE.
THERE IS A NIXON ARTICLE IN
FOREIGN AFFAIRS MAGAZINE IN THE
MID-1960'S THAT FORESHADOWS THE
OPENING TO CHINA.
HERE IS SOMETHING WRITTEN BY A
PERSON WHO WAS AMONG THE MOST
ANTI-COMMUNIST FIGURES IN THE
ADMINISTRATION.
TALKING ALMOST A DECADE IN
ADVANCE ABOUT BETTER RELATIONS
WITH CHINA.
GOOD GOALS.
KEN: THERE IS A CUTE TAPE IN
WHICH NIXON DECLARES THAT ONLY
NIXON COULD GO TO CHINA.
HE IS THE ONE WHO FIRST CAME UP
WITH THAT.
LUKE: 40 YEARS LATER WE ARE
STILL TRYING TO DIGEST, HOW GOOD
OF A THING WAS THIS.
THE RELATIONSHIP WITH U.S. AND
CHINA IS COMPLICATED.
I THINK HE UNDERSTOOD IT WAS
COMPLICATED AT THE TIME, BUT
NIXON WANTED TO IMPROVE LAOIS
-- IMPROVE RELATIONS WITH THE
SOVIET UNION FOR THE SHORT-TERM,
THE NEAR TERM OF FIVE YEARS.
HIS GOAL WITH CHINA WAS A LONG
GAME, 20 YEARS, 25 YEARS.
THAT IT IS MUCH BETTER TO MAKE
PEACE WITH THE WORLD'S LARGEST
NATION ON OUR TERMS AND GET TO A
POINT 25 YEARS FROM NOW WHERE
THEY WILL RUN THINGS.
HE DESERVES CREDIT FOR THAT
IDEA.
THE IDEA WAS NOT NEW.
PRESIDENTS BEFORE NIXON HAD
TALKED ABOUT IMPROVING RELATIONS
BUT IT WAS NIXON WHO REALLY MADE
THE MOVE AND WAS ABLE TO MAKE
THE MOVE.
DOUG: AND SO HE DESERVES CREDIT
FOR THAT COURAGE.
IT REFLECTS IN ANOTHER WAY THAT
IS INTERESTING TO THINK ABOUT.
IN THAT ERA, THIS WHOLE SEQUENCE
OF PRESIDENTS, ALL OF WHOSE VIEW
ON THE WORLD AND THEIR
INTERPRETATION OF THE LIMITS OF
THEIR BEHAVIOR, THE SORTS OF
THINGS THEY COULD ATTEMPT WERE
OVERWHELMINGLY DRIVEN BY THE
COLD WAR FRAMEWORK.
THE IDEA THAT THERE IS THIS
THREAT TO THE EXISTENCE OF THE
UNITED STATES AND HUMANITY.
THIS GREAT RISK.
THAT HAS A DISCIPLINING AFFECT
ON THE GEOPOLITICS IN RESPECTS
TO THE PRESIDENCY.
WE CANNOT UNDERMINE THIS PERSON
WHO REPRESENTS US AND HIS
CONFRONTATION WITH THE OTHER
SIDE THAT HUMANITY HANGS IN THE
BALANCE.
THEN ONE THE COLD WAR GOES AWAY,
WE BEGIN TO HAVE THE KIND OF
POLITICS WE HAVE TODAY.
THAT, WITHOUT THAT X ESSENTIAL
-- WITHOUT THAT EXISTENTIAL
THREAT, IT HAS UNLEASHED MORE
JUVENILE AND DESTRUCTIVE FORCES
IN DOMESTIC POLITICS.
DOES THAT SEEM REASONABLE?
BASED ON THE WAY THINGS WORKS --
THE WAY THINGS WORKED AS THE
TAPES PORTRAYED THEM THAT
EARLIER ERA?
LUKE: NIXON ON THE TAPES IMPAIRS
THE PROCESS OF IMPROVING
RELATIONS WITH CHINA TO
IMPROVING RELATIONS WITH ALREADY
WELL-ESTABLISHED ALLIES IN
EUROPE.
HE SAYS ON THE TAPES THAT
IMPROVING RELATIONS WITH CHINA
WITH MUCH -- WAS MUCH EASIER
THAN IMPROVING RELATIONS WITH --
THIS ANALOGY OF THE FAMILY REACT
WHEN YOU HAVE A FAMILY, YOU KNOW
EACH OTHER TOO WELL AND YOU HAVE
FIGHTS.
EARLY ON, WHEN YOU'RE GETTING TO
KNOW EACH OTHER BUT THERE IS A
CERTAIN EUPHORIA THAT DRIVES
ACTIONS ON BOTH SIDES.
BOTH SIDES WANTED TO IMPROVE
RELATIONS.
I AM NOT SURPRISED AND I DO NOT
THINK NIXON WOULD BE SURPRISED
THAT WE HAVE ENTERED A MORE
COMPLICATED PHASE IN THE
RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA.
WE DO KNOW EACH OTHER A LOT
BETTER.
KISSINGER DRIVING THROUGH INDIA
AND PAKISTAN, OUT OF THE OPEN,
THEY ARE ARE OUT IN THE OPEN,
MORE SCRUTINIZED.
I THINK STATES ARE MUCH HIGHER.
KEN: I THINK EVERY FOUR YEARS,
ANYBODY WANTS TO BE PRESIDENT IS
ADVISED TO COME UP WITH A THREAT
TO THE UNITED STATES.
IT IS USEFUL POLITICALLY FOR
EVERYONE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT
TO SAY THESE GUYS, THE
INCUMBENTS, THE OPPOSITION PARTY
IS LEAVING US OPENED TO A THREAT
THAT WILL DESTROY US OR MAKE US
WEAK.
IT IS HARD FOR PEOPLE TO MAKE
THE ARGUMENT, THERE'S NOT MUCH
WE CAN DO ABOUT IT.
GEORGE MARSHALL, AS GREAT
PATRIOT AS ANYONE COULD PROVE
HIMSELF TO BE, TRIED TO MAKE A
CASE IN THE 1950'S THAT WE COULD
NOT SAVE CHINA.
THAT CASE, HOWEVER TRUE, DID NOT
FLY WITH THE VOTERS.
VOTERS DO NOT WANT TO HEAR THAT
THERE ARE PROBLEMS WE CANNOT
SOLVE.
POLITICIANS CAN MAKE THEMSELVES
LOOK STRONG AND BRAVE AND
TRUSTWORTHY BY SAYING, IF ONLY
THEY WERE IN POWER, THEY WOULD
HAVE BEEN ABLE TO MAKE THOSE
PROBLEMS GO AWAY.
DOUG: ANOTHER PARALLEL OFTEN
DRAWN BETWEEN PRESENT TIMES AND
THE PART OF THE NIXON PERIOD IS
IF WE GO BACK TO 1968 AND
COMPARE TO THE PRESENT IN TERMS
OF DOMESTIC POLITICS.
WE ARE OFTEN UNDER THE BELIEF
THAT WE ARE IN A MORE DIVIDED
TIME THAN EVER.
AT THE LEVEL OF BITTERNESS OF
AMERICAN POLITICS AT PRESENT IS
UNPRECEDENTED.
LET'S PUT ALL THAT ASIDE AND
STAY IN THE MODERN ERA.
IN 1968 AND THE BEGINNING OF THE
NIXON PRESIDENCY THERE WAS
TREMENDOUS TURMOIL IN THE
COUNTRY. THERE WAS A THREE-WAY
SPLIT BETWEEN ONE KIND OF
CONSERVATISM, ANOTHER KIND OF
CONSERVATISM THAT IT WAS
DEMOCRATS BUT IT HAD A MORE
RACIAL TONE.
THE MORE LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC
PARTY.
THIS DIVISION THAT TODAY LOOKED
LIKE REPUBLICANS, DEMOCRATS AND
THE TEA PARTY.
NIXON ENDS UP HAD IT NOT BEEN
FOR WATERGATE, BEING A RATHER
SUCCESSFUL PRESIDENT.
WORKING THROUGH THIS DIVIDED
POLITICAL TIME -- LET ME ASK YOU
DID HE MANAGE THAT SORT OF
, DIVISION IN THE COUNTRY BETTER
OR WORSE THAN WE SEE IT BEING
MANAGED I PRESIDENT TODAY?
KEN: HE MADE THE DIVISION WORK
FOR HIM.
IN 1972, HE GOT TOGETHER A HUGE
COALITION. HE WAS ABLE TO SAY,
HERE ARE THE PROBLEMS.
FOR A BRIEF PERIOD, HE GOT A BIG
COALITION AGAINST THE PROBLEMS
AS HE DEFINED THEM.
AFTER HE DID THAT, HE SET THE
STANDARD FOR FUTURE REPUBLICAN
RESIDENTIAL NOMINEES.
SO TO THAT EXTENT, HE WAS KIND
OF SUCCESSFUL.
WHETHER THAT IS GOOD FOR THE
COUNTRY OR NOT, I FIND IT
IMPOSSIBLE TO SAY.
GOOD THINGS AND BAD THINGS ABOUT
IT.
DOUG: FINAL THOUGHTS FROM EACH
OF YOU.
LUKE: IT IS CLEAR NO MATTER WHO
TOOK THE WHITE HOUSE ON JANUARY
20, 1969, WAS NOT GOING TO BE AN
EASY JOB.
IT WAS GOING TO BE ROUGHED NO
MATTER WHO CAPTURED THE
ELECTION.
IN SOME WAYS, THE BIG PICTURE,
NOT ALL DIVISION IS BAD.
WE EXPECT TO HAVE SOME DIVISION.
I THINK IT IS WHEN IT GOES
BEYOND A HEALTHY DEGREE OF
DIVISION, HAVING OVER
GERRYMANDERED ARE CONGRESS.
I THINK WE CAN HAVE A REAL
DEBATE ABOUT THAT.
JOHN: THE POLITICAL
CONTROVERSIES OVER VIETNAM AND
THE DIVISION OF THE AMERICAN
PEOPLE OVER VIETNAM AND THE
OPPOSITION TO THE WAR RISING AND
BECOMING CENTRALIZED,
SPECIFICALLY IN 1968 BECAUSE OF
THE EVENTS OF 1968, THAT IN FACT
THE POLITICAL PROBLEM THAT
RICHARD NIXON FACED ON JANUARY
21, 1969 WAS PROBABLY AN ORDER
OF MAGNITUDE MORE COMPLEX THAN
ANY OF HIS PREDECESSORS, AT
LEAST IN THE MODERN ERA, HAD
FACED.
IF YOU LOOK AT IT FROM THAT
PERSPECTIVE, MR. NIXON'S ABILITY
TO MANAGE THESE AMERICAN
POLITICS WAS AMAZING.
DOUG: ASTONISHINGLY, WE END ON A
POSITIVE NOTE FOR RICHARD NIXON.
THANK ALL THREE OF YOU FOR BEING
HERE.
THESE ARE WONDERFUL WORKS.
IT HAS BEEN FASCINATING TO TALK
WITH YOU. TO LEARN MORE ABOUT
THESE AUTHORS AND THEIR BOOKS,
OR TO READ A SCRIPT, VISIT US AT
MILLER CENTER.ORG.
I'M DOUG BLACKMON. SEE YOU NEXT
TIME.
[CAPTIONING PERFORMED BY THE
NATIONAL CAPTIONING INSTITUTE,
WHICH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ITS
CAPTION CONTENT AND ACCURACY.
VISIT NCICAP.ORG]
