Practice English Speaking&Listening with: National Debate Over Future Of Confederate Statues | Morning Joe | MSNBC

PLACED THERE AND IT’S ABOUT THE

PRESENT IN WHICH WE INTERPRET.

>> AND, DAVID, YOU SUGGESTED

THAT THE EMANCIPATION STATUE

WITH ABRAHAM LINCOLN SHOULD NOT

BE TORN DOWN.

EXPLAIN.

>> WELL, THAT MONUMENT WAS PUT

UP IN APRIL OF 1879, ON THE 11th

ANNIVERSARY OF LINCOLN’S

ASSASSINATION.

IT WAS PAID FOR, $20,000 BY

AFRICAN-AMERICANS.

THE FIRST $5 GIVEN BY A FORMER

SLAVE WOMAN NAMED CHARLOTTE

SCOTT IN MISSOURI.

THE MODEL FOR THE KNEELING

SLAVE, THE OFFENSIVE, NOW QUITE

OFFENSIVE IMAGE OF THAT KNEELING

SLAVE WAS A REAL PERSON NAMED

ARCHER ALEXANDER, WHO WAS THE

LAST PERSON IN MISSOURI ACTUALLY

PROSECUTED UNDER THE FUGITIVE

SLAVE ACT.

HE HAS A VERY INTERESTING

HISTORY HIMSELF.

THE WHOLE UNVEILING OF ANY THAT

STATUE WAS A BLACK AFFAIR IN

WASHINGTON, D.C.

A HUGE PARADE.

MOST IMPORTANTLY TO ME,

FREDERICK DOUGLASS ALL BUT MADE

THAT GROUND SACRED AT THE

UNVEILING SPEECH.

THAT SPEECH IS THE SECOND

GREATEST SPEECH OF DOUGLASS’S

LIFE AFTER HIS FOURTH OF JULY

SPEECH, BECAUSE IN THAT SPEECH

HE HONESTLY, FORTHRIGHTLY

DECLARED THAT ABRAHAM LINCOLN

HAD BEEN THE WHITE MAN’S

PRESIDENT.

THAT ABRAHAM LINCOLN HAD THE

ASSUMPTIONS AND PREJUDICES OF

WHITE AMERICANS.

HE DIDN’T JUST GET UP AND MAKE

SOME CEREMONIAL SPEECH.

HE BLUNTLY STATED THAT.

HE SAID, MY FELLOW WHITE

AMERICANS, YOU ARE ABRAHAM

LINCOLN’S CHILDREN.

I AND MY PEOPLE ARE ONLY HIS

STEP CHILDREN BY ADOPTION, BY

NECESSITY, BY CIRCUMSTANCES.

IN THE SECOND PART OF THE

SPEECH, CLASSIC MOVE BY DOUGLASS

IN HIS ORATORY, HE SHIFTED AND

HE SAID, UNDER HIS RULE AND

UNDUE TIME, HE USED IT THREE

TIMES AS A REFRAIN, HE SAID THE

WAY WE BECAME FREE WAS BY THIS

CAUTIOUS, METHODICAL METHOD THAT

LINCOLN USE FEDERAL POWER AND

USE THE ARMIES TO FREE

AFRICAN-AMERICANS.

SO, ON THE ONE HAND, IT WAS THIS

BLUNTLY HONEST STATEMENT OF

WHERE LINCOLN HAD COME FROM BUT

THEN ALSO ABOUT WHERE LINCOLN

HAD REACHED.

THE LAST POINT IN THAT SPEECH,

DOUGLASS WAS TELLING THE

COUNTRY, YOU’RE LOSING

RECONSTRUCTION RIGHT NOW IN 1876

IF YOU DON’T ACT FAST, YOU WILL

LOSE ALL THE GREAT RESULTS OF

THE CIVIL WAR.

I PREFER THAT WE BUILD A NEW

EMANCIPATION MEMORIAL NEXT TO

THAT MONUMENT.

LET’S GET SOME MODERN ARTISTS

INSPIRED BY THIS STORY.

LET’S BUILD AN EMANCIPATION

MEMORIAL NEXT TO IT, WHICH IS

ACTUALLY WHAT FREDERICK DOUGLASS

ADVOCATED FIVE DAYS AFTER THAT

SPEECH.

>> I, IN FACT, HAVE THAT SPEECH

PINNED ON MY TWITTER FEED

BECAUSE IT LINES UP -- IF YOU

READ CARL SANDBERG’S BIOGRAPHY

OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN, HE WAS

CONSIDERED MADDENINGLY CAUTIOUS

BY ABOLITIONISTS.

HE WAS CONSIDERED MADDENINGLY

PRAGMATIC.

IN FACT, LINCOLN SAID AT THE

BEGINNING, WROTE A LETTER TO THE

NATION SAYING IF MY GOAL IS TO

SAVE THE UNION, IF THAT MEANS

IT’S A UNION THAT’S HALF FREE,

HALF SLAVE, THAT IS MY GOAL.

IF THAT MEANS, IT IS COMPLETELY

FREE, THAT IS MY GOAL.

I PUT SAVING THE UNION ABOVE

ANYTHING ELSE.

AS YOU READ SANDBERG’ BOOK, YOU

UNDERSTAND THAT LINCOLN IS JUST

TRYING TO DRAG, NOT THE SOUTH,

HE’S FIGHTING THE SOUTH, THE

NORTH ALONG IN THIS PROJECT TO

FREE THE SLAVES AND THAT

DOUGLASS SPEECH, EXCUSE ME FOR

GOING ON HERE, IT IS ONE OF THE

MOST REMARKABLE SPEECHES I’VE

EVER HEARD IN EXPLAINING ABRAHAM

LINCOLN AND THE MISSION OF

ABRAHAM LINCOLN.

KIMBERLY, DONALD TRUMP WOULD

LIKE US TO BELIEVE IF WILSON’S NAME IS TAKEN OFF OF PRINCETON

NAME IS TAKEN OFF OF PRINCETON

OR IF A FOUNDER OF THE KLU KLUX

KLAN STATUE IS TAKEN DOWN,

THEY’RE COMING AFTER THE

WASHINGTON MEMORIAL NEXT.

WHAT SHOULD THE RESPONSE TO THAT

BE?

>> THE MESSAGING BY THE

PRESIDENT IS SERVING A SPECIFIC

PURPOSE.

IT’S A CALL TO THE SPECIFIC PART

OF AMERICA THAT HE BELIEVES IS

IMPORTANT TO HIM, THAT HE

BELIEVES HE NEEDS TO GALVANIZE

IN ORDER TO WIN POLITICALLY.

THE PRESIDENT IS NOT SPEAKING AS

AN HISTORIAN.

HE’S NOT SPEAKING ABOUT THE

VALUES OF AMERICA AS AN

INSTITUTION.

HE’S SPEAKING ABOUT -- HE’S

SPEAKING TO THE PEOPLE IMPORTANT

TO HIM IN THAT SENSE.

I THINK THAT’S A VERY DIFFERENT

DISCUSSION THAN THE ONE THAT WE

ARE HAVING HERE.

I CAN SPEAK FOR MYSELF AS A

BLACK AMERICAN KNOWING MANY OF

THESE MONUMENTS WERE PUT UP FOR

THE PURPOSE OF TERRORISM, FOR

THE PURPOSE OF TERRORIZING BLACK

AMERICANS LONG AFTER THE CIVIL

WAR WAS DONE SPEAKS VOLUMES

ABOUT WHAT THEY ENSHRINE AND

WHAT THEY MEAN.

BUT I WOULD LOVE TO ASK EDDIE A

QUESTION.

AS WE STAND NOW IN WHAT AT SOME

POINT WILL BE CALLED THE CIVIL

RIGHTS ERA OF THE 2020s AND HOW

THAT WILL BE MEMORIALIZED.

HOW SHOULD AMERICA THINK OF THAT

MOVING FORWARD?

HOW DO WE MEMORIALIZE THIS

MOMENT WHAT MONUMENTS SHOULD BE

MADE TO THIS MOMENT AND HOW DO

YOU DEAL WITH THE FA ACCOUNT

THAT WE LIVE IN A COUNTRY WHERE

OUR PRESIDENTS -- WHERE

MONUMENTS WERE MADE TO OUR

PRESIDENT?

SO WHAT WILL A MONUMENT TO THE

45th PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED

STATES LOOK LIKE, WHAT SHOULD IT

LOOK LIKE?

>> I’M NOT SURE, KIMBERLY, TO BE

HONEST WITH YOU.

AS DAVID BLIGHT, THE HISTORIAN,

WOULD SAY, WE HAVE TO WAIT AND

SEE.

HE HAS A CHOICE.

IT IS A MOMENTOUS CHOICE.

WHETHER OR NOT WE’RE GOING TO

DOUBLE DOWN ON OUR UGLINESS OR

IMAGINE A NEW AMERICA.

I WAS JUST THINKING ABOUT THAT

SPEECH BY FREDERICK DOUGLASS,

AND KIMBERLY AND JOE AND DAVID

AND WILLIE AND MIKA, I WAS

THINKING ABOUT THAT SPEECH AND

DRAWING A STRAIGHT LINE TO JIMMY

BALDWIN.

THERE’S A LINE THAT JIMMY USES

WHERE HE SAYS, PEOPLE THAT

IMAGINE HISTORY FLATTERS THEM

ARE IMPALED ON THEIR HISTORY

LIKE A BUTTERFLY ON A PIN.

WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE

UGLINESS OF WHO WE ARE AND WHAT

WE’VE DONE IN ORDER TO IMAGINE

OURSELVES OTHERWISE.

THAT’S WHAT IT MEANS TO BE

CREATURES OF HISTORY.

THAT’S WHAT IT MEANS TO CARRY

HISTORY FORWARD INTO THE PRESENT

AND AS WE TRY DESPERATELY TO

IMAGINE A BETTER FUTURE.

>> EDDIE, WELL SAID.

I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU TO BRING

MR. BALDWIN BACK INTO THE

CONVERSATION AROUND YOUR BOOK

HERE AND SPEAK SPECIFICALLY

ABOUT THE MONUMENT QUESTION, YOU

STARTED TO DO IT RIGHT THERE.

YOU KNOW, HE WAS INSISTENT THAT

WHITE AMERICANS HAVE TOLD

THEMSELVES A VERSION OF HISTORY

THAT PUTS THEM AT THE CENTER OF

IT, OF COURSE.

AND AS YOU QUOTED THERE,

FLATTERS THEM.

WHAT DOES TAKING DOWN A

CONFEDERATE STATUE, WHAT DOES

CHALLENGING SOME OF THE STORIES

OF HISTORY WE’VE HEARD, WHAT

DOES THAT DO FOR OUR NEW LOOK AT

HISTORY, THE WAY, PERHAPS, JAMES

BALDWIN WOULD WANT US TO LOOK AT

IT?

>> I THINK THE FIRST THING,

WILLIE -- THAT’S SUCH A GREAT

QUESTION.

THE FIRST THING IT IS, IT IS AN

EXPLICIT ATTEMPT TO ADDRESS THE

LIE.

THE LOST CAUSE IS A LIE.

THE STATUES ARE MEMORIALS TO

THAT LIE.

OUTSIDE OF THE FACT THAT IT

ACTUALLY HAPPENED IN HISTORY,

BUT THE STORY IT TRIES TO

COMMEND, THE VALUES THOSE

STATUES REPRESENT ARE VALUES

THAT RUN CONTRARY TO A ROBUST

UNDERSTANDING OR ROBUST VIEW OF

MULTIRACIAL DEMOCRACY.

SO WHAT BALDWIN CONSTANTLY ASKED

OF US AND WHAT I’M ASKING OF US

IN THIS MOMENT IS THAT WE

CONFRONT OR HISTORY, WE CONFRONT

THE STORIES WE’VE TOLD OF

OURSELVES, SO THAT WE CAN

ACTUALLY FREE OURSELVES INTO

IMAGINING AMERICA DIFFERENTLY

AND TO IMAGINE OUR RELATIONSHIP

TO EACH OTHER DIFFERENTLY.

AND I THINK THAT’S WHAT BALDWIN

MEANT WHEN HE SAID THE GREAT

FORCE OF HISTORY IS THAT WE

CARRY IT FORWARD IN OURSELVES

AND IT’S WITH GREAT PAIN AND

TERROR THAT WE CONFRONT

OURSELVES WHICH MEANS WE

CONFRONT THAT HISTORY.

SO, I UNDERSTAND WHAT ROSS IS

TALKING ABOUT, WHAT HE’S WRITING

ABOUT.

I UNDERSTAND THE ANXIETY THAT

SOME FOLK ARE HAVING AS WE

STRUGGLE WITH THE MEANING OF

JEFFERSON AND WASHINGTON AND THE

MEANING OF THESE MONUMENTS, BUT

I DO KNOW BE THIS, THAT IF WE

DON’T STRUGGLE, WE WILL BE

PERMANENTLY DOCKED AT THE

STATION.

WE WILL NOT CHANGE.

AND THEN THE MONUMENTS THAT KIM

ASKED ABOUT WILL BE MONUMENTS TO

RUINS, NOT TO A BETTER AMERICA.

>> MIKE BARNICLE HAS A QUESTION

FOR DAVID.

MIKE?

>> DAVID, LISTENING TO THIS

CONVERSATION THIS MORNING, THIS

IS WHAT WE DO BEST.

NOT JUST ON THIS SHOW, BUT

TELEVISION.

THIS IS WHAT WE DO BEST.

WE DON’T DO IT OFTEN ENOUGH BUT

IT IS REALLY REWARDING AND

ENRICHING TO LISTEN TO WHAT’S

BEEN GOING ON HERE FOR THE PAST

SEVERAL MINUTES.

MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, HISTORY

WAS MY FAVORITE COURSE IN HIGH

SCHOOL.

I LOVED HISTORY.

I STILL LOVE HISTORY.

BUT HISTORY IS LITERALLY A STUDY

OF THE PAST.

AS WE DISCUSS WHAT WE’RE

DISCUSSING TODAY WITH ALL THESE

KERNELS OF INFORMATION DROPPED

OUT THAT MANY PEOPLE HAVE NOT

HEARD OF BEFORE, IS IT NOT AN

INDICTMENT OF THE WAY WE HAVE

BEEN TEACHING HISTORY TO OUR

CHILDREN, THE OMISSION OF ALL OF

THESE VITAL FACTS ABOUT WHO WE

REALLY ARE TODAY?

>> WELL, MIKE, THANK YOU FOR

THAT QUESTION.

I’M AFRAID THE ANSWER IS YES AND

NO.

HISTORIANS FOR THREE GENERATIONS

HAVE REWRITTEN THE HISTORY OF

THIS COUNTRY, ESPECIALLY THE

HISTORY OF SLAVERY, RACE, THE

CIVIL WAR, RECONSTRUCTION, JIM

CROW ERA, CIVIL RIGHTS, BUT

THERE IS ALWAYS A GREAT DISTANCE

BETWEEN THE SCHOLARLY HISTORY WE

WRITE IN THE ACADEMY, EVEN THOSE

WHO WRITE FOR LARGER AUDIENCES,

AND THE PUBLIC MEMORY.

THE TASK IS TO AFFECT THAT

PUBLIC MEMORY.

AND I WOULD HAVE -- BY THE WAY,

A SHOUT OUT TO EDDIE’S BOOK.

GET THE BOOK, FOLKS.

TAKE A WALK WITH EDDIE, WITH

JAMES BALDWIN.

IT WILL BE REWARDING.

NOW, LAST POINT, I LOVE THE FACT

THAT YOU ALL USE THOSE CLIPS OF

VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN’S SPEECH

YESTERDAY BECAUSE ONE OF THE

BEST THINGS THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN

COULD DO RIGHT NOW, I THINK IT

WOULD BE VERY POPULAR, IS TO

ANNOUNCE THEY’RE GOING TO GET

BEHIND THIS.

NOT JUST TAKING DOWN CONFEDERATE

MONUMENTS AND HAVING TO, YOU

KNOW, CUT THAT FINE LINE BETWEEN

WHICH SLAVEHOLDER WE TAKE AWAY

AND WHICH SLAVEHOLDER WE DON’T,

BUT WHY NOT GET BEHIND

GET BEHIND THE ISSUE OR THE IDEA

OF BUILDING CONFEDERATION

MEMORIALS.

LET’S REPLACE IT WITH SERIOUS,

INTERESTING, HISTORICALLY

INFORMEDINFORM

ED EMANCIPATION MEMORIALS?

START WITH ONE IN LINCOLN PARK

IN WASHINGTON, AND HAVE A

COMMISSION THAT ALLOWS

LOCALITIES TO DO THE SAME, EVERY

PLACE THAT HAD A REFUGEE CAMP

FOR ESCAPED SLAVES AND LET’S

MOVE ON TO WHAT WAS JUST

SUGGESTED ABOUT THIS MOMENT.

HOW WILL WE BEGIN TO THINK ABOUT

COMMEMORATING THIS MOMENT?

WE NEED A LOT MORE TIME TO DO

THAT.

THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SHOULD

GET BEHIND THAT.

I’M SORRY --

>> THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME THIS

MORNING.

WE WILL CONTINUE OUR